Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 27th, 2025

[Margareta Dovgal]

I think the piece that you were referring to earlier speaks to the broader kind of approach that we take to Canada's identity. It's beyond the scope of this committee, for sure.

We need to define what it is to be Canadian, and we are in a sense postnational. Many of the people who live in this country come from different places, speak different languages and have different ethnic backgrounds. That is the strength of Canada.

We can't do it in a vacuum where the focus is on looking with shame and some degree of disgust on how we got here and how this country was founded, if we want to present any kind of unified front on who we are. Lots of immigrants I speak to, who are coming here now, don't see anything to being Canadian beyond just civic values. To them that's not a particularly strong or compelling case. I think that's a difficult but necessary one, broadly.

As it relates to immigration specifically, I really like the general frame of going after people who are outright disrespecting the compact that comes with immigration. They're not obeying the law. They're launching fake claims to try to get into the system. I think those are basic principles-based things that we can do to ensure that the immigration system itself has integrity and reflects the values that Canadians expect it to have.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

To paraphrase what you just said, you're saying that we should be strict with our rules. If you break the rules, if you break our laws, if you don't follow the cultural norms that we have in terms of legal laws, then you should not be considered to stay in the country. Is that what you're saying?

[Margareta Dovgal]

That's right. Clear, transparently applied rules are critical. Likewise, it is pretty important that it's not rules in a vacuum.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

In terms of this cultural piece, you referred to our previous prime minister Trudeau, who said that we're in this postnational world. You used that word, but you said it could still have value and meaning.

How important is that to maintain in order for newcomers to integrate into what we call Canada?

[Margareta Dovgal]

I think postnationalism is a reality, but it is not an objective goal, nor should it be a goal. The way that Canada came together over the last couple of decades, going from a foundation where it was English and French.... There was settlement taking place and there were indigenous peoples who lived here prior to Europeans arriving. The way that Canada evolved was in a postnational sense in the last couple of decades.

That doesn't mean it needs to be our defining approach. It's a reality that we need to accept, but we also need to create space for important conversations that are happening now about what it means to be a Canadian in 2025 and onwards.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

Thank you.

Next, for six minutes, we go to Ms. Salma Zahid.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre—Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks to all the witnesses.

Mr. Basa, my questions will be for you. I've had the pleasure of meeting you and your members of the caregiver community many times. I really want to thank you for your advocacy for the caregivers.

Caregivers play such an important role in caring for our families and for our loved ones. They are skilled workers doing work we can't find Canadians to do. In budget 2025, our new government recognized the value of personal support workers with a new tax credit, providing eligible PSWs with up to $1,100 annually.

Before I turn to the new pilots, the government has signalled its intention to move from temporary pilots toward a permanent caregiver immigration program in the coming years. Drawing on your decade-plus of advocacy, what would the essential pillars of that permanent program need to be in terms of admission numbers, eligibility criteria and settlement supports so that Canada can reliably meet its caregiver needs for home child care and home support workers while treating those workers with the fairness and respect they deserve and need?

[Allan Ralph Basa]

First of all, allow me to take this opportunity to really thank you for the long time you have given us your ear and for giving us a voice in our struggle for better policies and advocacy. Thank you very much for being with us all those years, honourable MP Zahid.

The eligibility requirement for caregivers to become permanent residents underwent a long struggle until we were successfully granted our long appeal for the lowering of the eligibility requirement that matches the category of work that caregivers perform. Along that line, by and large, the home care worker immigration pilot is an answer to the cry of caregivers for a lowered eligibility requirement.

However, notwithstanding the lowered eligibility requirement, the dream of a caregiver to become a permanent resident continues to be in the distant sky, an illusionary gold mine, considering the challenges, the systemic problems, that hinder them from becoming permanent residents. There is a huge backlog. It's also a very small portion of immigration labour; it only constitutes, I think, 0.2% of the national level. This is a serious factor that affects the continuing demand of Canadians for caregivers, for them to fully be in the labour force.

In terms of settlement, caregivers thrive. They don't rely much on government support. They're here to work, and they thrive. The only problem is the very small allocation that is given for the caregivers in the immigration level. Take note that with the backlog of 34,400 for caregivers in 2025 and taking into account the limit that the government has set—which is to accommodate only 14% this year—we're talking about only 4,816 caregivers.

However, since that has already been filled up, of the 5,500 who were accepted last March in the home care worker immigration pilot, only 600 will be considered. The rest—4,900—will be added to the backlog of 34,400.

Again, as I have said, these are caregivers who, for the longest time, have endured at the hands of abusive employers. They know that there's no other way but to stay with their employers, no matter what. For them to not be accommodated in a very slim, very tiny level or quota.... They will again suffer from an expired work permit. They will suffer from the financial burden of the costly process of a labour market impact assessment.

On the ground, although it is the employer who should pay for the labour market impact assessment—which, on average, is $6,000—the employer knows the desperation of the caregiver, and the caregiver will shoulder that. That is not supposed to be. The caregiver who is clinging to that hope and not losing that employer will suffer the burden of that financial cost, plus the work permit of, say, $1,500. These are the things that are happening on the ground—and worse.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre—Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

Mr. Simard, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I just want to remind you that the d is silent in my name. “Simarde” in French is not very flattering.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

Oh, I am sorry.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

No worries, Madam Chair.

Ms. Dovgal, I really liked that, in your opening statement, you came back in a clear and concise manner to the issue of integration. For my part, I am going to tell you about a Quebec perspective.

Talking about immigration and raising questions about it often creates terrible reputational harm, particularly for Quebec. As soon as we talk about integrating migrants or limiting the admission threshold for asylum seekers, we are labelled as racists or people who have a hard time accepting differences. However, that is not necessarily the case. In fact, we have to look at the situation as a whole.

Quebec has received more than its share of asylum seekers. There was the Roxham Road period. Then, when Mr. Trudeau called for migrants to come to Canada, it unfortunately created pressure on public services. Let us face it, it has created an untenable situation.

On the one hand, this issue has to be resolved. Above all, we have to educate not only the people, but also elected officials, so as not to make immigration an ideological issue, which is very biased and very pernicious. We are experiencing it right now. So we have to do this education work.

On the other hand, there is also work to be done on integration. I really enjoyed your presentation, since you seemed to be insisting on that. There is an integration problem from the moment people come here and unfortunately do not want to live with others. It is unfortunate, but it happens. After all, it takes a pretty strong sense of identity. However, there is a distinction to be made when it comes to Quebec's identity, where the national identity is very strong. You talked earlier about postnationalism. When I heard Mr. Trudeau say that word, I wondered if he understood its meaning. Postnational identity is initially something the Germans use. Given their past, it is entirely understandable that they want to move to a postnational identity. However, to say that we are in a postnational identity regime in Canada is far-fetched, because there are indigenous nations and there is the Quebec nation. So there are specific cultures that people have to integrate into. I am glad you pointed that out.

I would like you to tell us about the social cohesion that will be necessary for the integration of migrants. It would be very interesting if you could tell us more about that.

[Margareta Dovgal]

Thank you so much, Mr. Simard, for that.

I think it's interesting that you specifically mentioned Germany. Germany, in contrast to Canada, despite having many surface-level characteristics in common with Canada, has gone to great lengths to prioritize integration as a form and a focus of its immigration policies. It is one of the countries that receives nods and accolades for very compassionately welcoming people, particularly those fleeing war and hardship, by being really focused on how it can ensure that immigrants are meaningfully participating in the economy. One of the ways it deals with the cultural integration component is by mandating linguistic identity integration classes.

In order to immigrate to Germany, you need to speak German, and I think Quebec's example is an interesting one. I agree with your concerns that within this country and the immigration discourse, particularly in western Canada where I'm from, we often miss the Quebec example, but I think one of the ways you do that is by creating opportunities for immigrants to see themselves as Canadians beyond just living here.

When my mother was going to school for English—I think I was in kindergarten at the time—her English language class funding was cut off. She never learned English fully. She passed when I was 18 years old. That is a good example of my own background, where a failure to invest in something as basic as linguistic integration had massive knock-on consequences, because she never felt truly Canadian as a result of it, and I think it spans a full spectrum. It involves ways you can socialize with Canadians, enter the workforce and feel like you're part of society in a meaningful way.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Absolutely.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

You have one minute left, Mr. Simard.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

It is a symptom of something else. In Canada, the integration model is a multicultural one. Under this model, no culture is above the others, which is a somewhat idyllic vision. Unlike the rest of Canada, the integration model in Quebec, known as interculturalism, involves a foundation. This foundation tells people that things happen in French in Quebec, that it is a secular state and that the equality of men and women should not be questioned. Those shared values are put forward.

I get the impression that, in Canada, we are not able to do that right now, if only in terms of language. It is unthinkable that a person would settle in a country without being able to speak one of the two official languages. I understand that, because of your mother's experience, this strikes a chord with you, but I think we need to set up much more robust integration policies in Canada.

I would like you to tell us about that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

Thank you, Mr. Simard and Ms. Dovgal.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

You can answer that question in writing, Ms. Dovgal.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

I will give you some time, Ms. Dovgal.

Please answer in 15 seconds.

[Margareta Dovgal]

Canadian identity and Canadian history started with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and we need to not forget that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

Thank you so much.

We're going to begin our second round, which is now five minutes.

Mr. Ma is going to begin. Thank you.

[Michael Ma, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you Madam Speaker.

My questions will be addressed to Ms. Dovgal.

You wrote a piece about a strong national culture. Specifically, you highlighted the “peril of maintaining civic cohesion amid a multi-ethnic society.”

Very briefly, please define what you mean by national civic cohesion. In your opinion, how have immigration levels in the last five to 10 years affected overall national civic cohesion in Canada?

[Margareta Dovgal]

I'm a historian by training. I became a public policy analyst and commentator after spending five years studying the religions and cultures of east Asia in a premodern context. I spent a lot of time studying what it takes for a civilization to form and the conditions under which a civilization can retain its relevance and strength in a world of changes. The nature of the changes we are seeing today in the 21st century is truly remarkable. It's a very different world. Things move very quickly.

Civic cohesion and identity in today's context have to be about how we maintain a high degree of trust with each other, because systems alone are not enough to do that. People need to be able to trust that the person they share a wall with, if they live in a condo or a townhouse, is someone they can trust to look out for them. It's about trusting that informal systems, like those in employment, are going to be fair and they're not going to be baked with the results. Things like that are crucial and part of the answer.

I think the lack of looking at that as a priority in how we structure our immigration system explains much of the tension we have seen around immigration as an issue. It also explains why, often, when immigrants come to this country, they don't understand why the rules exist, particularly when no one's enforcing them, which is a common refrain you hear from immigrants. They ask, “Are you telling me I could just lie on my taxes?” That's a thing I've heard. I'm not endorsing that view, but a lot of people say that because they don't understand how we can simultaneously have “high trust” and law enforcement. We're seeing that high trust disintegrate in live time right now.

[Michael Ma, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Riding on that, you talked about culture and integration in Canada. What cultural demands would you make of newcomers to Canada to restore the value of Canadian citizenship?