Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 27th, 2025

[Peter Copeland]

I do think that our annual immigration plan should be informed by information such as housing completions, rental rates in major metropolitan areas, social services availability, how available our health care service is and what have you in areas to which immigrants want to migrate.

I think we can also look at social trust barometers. Again, the general social survey does have some information on this. It could be packaged and produced better and updated more frequently.

I think these sorts of things would establish a baseline and then trends that could help inform levels planning. The more information, the better.

[Michael Ma, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you.

You also wrote, “Flourishing requires commitment, to people, place, and tradition”. Again, in terms of traditions, what weight would you give to residency requirements, language proficiency tests and citizenship tests?

[Peter Copeland]

That's a great question.

I think more weight should be given to them. I'm not going to come out with a number here, but I think that we're very clearly in a situation right now where the balance lies away from those things.

I think we need a greater balance. That's what we should be aiming for here. We should study the matter further, reflect upon that and aim to stress these things to right the balance.

[Michael Ma, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you.

You end off the article stressing that both policy and culture “should cultivate [dependencies] rightly ordered, to family, community, [and] nation”.

Can you elaborate in more detail the relationship between the current housing crisis and the failure of family formation?

[Peter Copeland]

Yes, certainly.

It is certainly a factor cited—that the inability to secure housing is one factor among many that is deterring family formation. We have an all-time low fertility rate. It's something that has economic, cultural and social consequences.

I think we need to be mindful of these sorts of things and not neglect the struggles of some of the domestic population in our immigration planning.

[Michael Ma, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Would you say that this may lead to a dilution of the values of being a Canadian?

[Peter Copeland]

I'm sorry. What would?

[Michael Ma, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

If immigrants and others come into the country, would they actually lead to any kind of dilution of our Canadian values?

[Peter Copeland]

I think it really depends on a number of things. It's about pace.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

You have one minute.

[Peter Copeland]

It's about the scale, and it's about the stress on integration and also the supports provided.

We have to look at these things all together. The extent to which trust improves or decreases is a result of many factors. Some of the other big influences on social trust are rule of law—adherence to the rule of law, its predictability and consistency—and the degree to which people believe that burdens are shared reasonably and that systems aren't being exploited. Both of those things, I think, are affected by Canadians' perceptions and the realities of various parts of the immigration system.

[Michael Ma, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you.

I have a very short—

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

No, I'm sorry, Mr. Ma.

Thank you.

Next, we have Ms. Sodhi for five minutes.

[Amandeep Sodhi, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

Ms. Madhany, you've highlighted that helping immigrants already in Canada to fully use their skills is just as important as managing immigration levels. With recent government measures like the foreign credential recognition program funding, settlement programs and the new levels plan, how do you see these initiatives helping immigrants contribute more fully to the Canadian workforce and society?

[Shamira Madhany]

As I said in my opening remarks, when you have such a significant number of immigrants who are highly skilled and who are not working in their profession or are underemployed, that basically means low productivity for the country, and you've heard of the recent report where people are leaving.

From my perspective, when we look at the whole issue of immigration planning and those who are here, these are two separate processes. Immigration planning is for the people you bring in. You have to be careful about giving them proper information and, once they arrive, providing the supports.

Among the individuals who are already here, we have a significant number of immigrants not working in their fields, so what we need to do is make sure we have standardized processes that are harmonized, especially for those in licensed occupations, so that they don't get invited to come to Canada, go to a province and find that they're not able to work.

What we need is a skills recognition framework with a coordinated approach between the federal government and provincial government licensing bodies so that people get their licences and are able to work.

[Amandeep Sodhi, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you for your answer.

I want to follow up on the last part of what you said.

In addition to what you already mentioned, what other metrics or indicators should the government use to know whether programs aimed at improving immigrant skills recognition and labour market integration are working?

[Shamira Madhany]

Basically, we need to make sure that, for the individuals we are inviting to the immigration express entry process, we understand that when they're coming here through a category-based process, we know whether they're actually going to get licensed or not, because what we know is that when they come, they're not getting licensed.

The first metric is to know what is happening to people when you're inviting them in a particular category.

The second is knowing, for those who end up coming to a particular province, if they are able to enter their occupation in a way that assesses their credentials and skills so that they get licensed and there aren't more barriers and duplication of language and training; there have to be opportunities for them to understand that they can take a bridging program and immediately move into getting licensed and working.

Then the third is making sure that those who are already here and in the workplace are not underutilizing their skills, so that if they're coming in as an engineer and are in the workplace, they're not just doing data entry. There needs to be a recognition program in the workplace to understand what skills they bring and how to leverage the skills for the organization.

[Amandeep Sodhi, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

My next question is for Mr. Copeland.

In an article for The Hill Times, you stated that “rebalancing intakes to align with absorptive capacity are essential if immigration is to remain both effective and publicly supported.” The new levels plan in budget 2025 will reduce the number of temporary residents from 673,000 to 385,000 next year and lower the number of permanent residents to 380,000.

What more would you recommend to continue strengthening the security and the integrity of Canada's immigration system while still welcoming newcomers?

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

You have 40 seconds.

[Peter Copeland]

I would reiterate that it would be appropriate to start tracking information related to absorptive capacity and to make the annual immigration plan reflective of that. I think we need to look at phasing back to numbers that we saw five or 10 years ago in the various categories. These are good first steps, but we need to bring volume down further.

When it comes to border security, I was very pleased to see the government leave in the asylum components of the bill and add some clauses through the clause-by-clause process. I also think it's important to strengthen Canada's overall border security regime, and that would include pursuing the lawful access regime that was removed from Bill C-2; our Five Eyes partner nations all have lawful access regimes, so Canada remains a laggard and a standout in this regard, and that makes us vulnerable to exploitation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

Thank you.

Mr. Simard, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Mr. Copeland, we could continue the discussion we were having earlier. We may try to define what Canadian identity is, but with a caveat. I do think we have to be very careful when we talk about immigration, because reputational harm happens quite quickly. Let me explain.

In Quebec, we have had discussions on immigration. We wondered whether thresholds should be established and whether integration policies should be considered. As a result, and I say this because we see it from inside Quebec, Quebeckers are now known in the rest of Canada as unwelcoming people. However, you will see that it is completely the opposite if you look at the statistics on hate crimes, since Quebec is at the bottom of the list in this regard, according to the statistics. So we have to be careful about that.

When we talk about the national project, I am sure that you have seen accusations that we are nationalists, as if the word “nationalist” is a dirty word, a poisonous word. I want to be careful about that.

The fact remains that, in my view, Canadians still need to define what it means to be Canadian. I think that we Quebeckers have managed to define our identity. It is clear for the French or the German what defines them, but it seems a little more problematic for Canadians.

I would like to hear your thoughts on that. You can take a little more time than the 20 seconds you were given earlier to articulate your thoughts.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

You have one minute.

[Peter Copeland]

I think increased civic literacy would help Canadians better understand aspects of our legal and political system, which are major standouts on the world stage. These would include our Westminster parliamentary system and our peace, order and good governance. We have a best-of-both-worlds approach with our legal system. We have parliamentary democracy and we have strong rights protections.

I think of Canada as a very measured and balanced place, but we need better articulation of what specific things make us that, rather than just stressing procedural things, tolerance and things of this nature.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

Thank you so much, Mr. Copeland.

Thank you, Mr. Simard.

Because we've run out of time, I'll give two minutes to Mr. Davies and two minutes to Mr. Fragiskatos, if that's okay. I will then have just one minute of committee business to make sure that everybody is on the same page as we wrap up before the holidays.

Mr. Davies, you have two minutes, please.