Evidence of meeting #33 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was services.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK
Are you seeing thousands and thousands of people leaving every month?
Conservative
Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK
Mr. Barutciski, there's kind of an assumption here, I think, that we have all these people coming into our country and we need to find solutions for them, but I think we also need to back up and ask whether there are some things we're doing to attract people here that maybe we should be doing differently. We've talked about not allowing claims from people transiting safe countries or from people abandoning claims when they've returned home, for example.
Do you think we need to be working at that end of it too in order to curb the number of people who are coming to our country?
Professor, York University, As an Individual
If we're concerned about the number of asylum seekers, and I think we should be, I think the inadmissibility provision, section 101 of the immigration act, should be reconsidered and maybe enlarged along the lines of what you suggest. There are certain kinds of claims and certain kinds of people who are able to claim asylum in Canada but could not in Europe, for example, at the moment. You can't just travel around a whole bunch of safe countries and then claim asylum in the last country you transited.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz
Thank you, Professor.
Thank you, Mr. Redekopp.
The two minutes for you, Mr. Fragiskatos, begin now.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London Centre, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses.
In fact, I think that while on the face of it there could be a gap between what Ms. Stellinga has offered the committee and what you have offered, Mr. Barutciski, there is some overlap.
For example, Ms. Stellinga, you're talking about ultimately ensuring that we have a sustainable system whereby those who are in the process of claiming asylum can go to communities that can accommodate them, where they can find the chance for integration and services won't be overwhelmed.
Mr. Barutciski, I see you nodding. You do agree with that principle.
I want to learn more about the German model. All of that seems to be predicated on buy-in, not just from the federal side in Germany but from the regional Länder governments that you're referring to. The same would have to come into being here in this country if, ultimately, we were to see a move toward what both of you are suggesting in terms of the ability of communities to integrate, accommodate and ensure that services are not overwhelmed.
Would you say that's a fair characterization, Mr. Barutciski?
Professor, York University, As an Individual
Yes. I'd say the various Länder do actually try to negotiate to get help from Berlin.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London Centre, ON
Okay.
What is your key recommendation to this committee in a sentence or two?
That's for Mr. Barutciski and then Ms. Stellinga.
Professor, York University, As an Individual
As I was suggesting in my opening statement, I think we have to get the basic principles straight. We have to think hard about what we are trying to do.
I would add that we want to distinguish asylum seekers from all the other immigrants—they're not in the same category—because we want to make sure there aren't future problems. If we want a more equitable federation, one where we're addressing a lot of the concerns raised by my colleague here, I think it is a smart idea to distribute it.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz
Ms. Stellinga, you have 15 seconds. Then we have to wrap up.
Ms. Stellinga.
Chief Executive Officer, COSTI Immigrant Services
We are recommending a multi-year intergovernmental national asylum and housing strategy that is coordinated and links reception, shelter capacity and pathways to success for positive outcomes; has coordinated supports to reduce duplication; has a shortened time in temporary accommodation; and helps people move toward work and independence sooner.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz
Thank you, Ms. Stellinga.
Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos.
I want to thank all the witnesses today. That was excellent testimony and an excellent conversation.
Thanks to all my colleagues for the great questions. I want to thank everyone for their time today.
We're going to suspend for about five minutes, so the current group of witnesses can leave. We'll come back with the second panel.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz
This session is back in order. We are now going to begin our second panel.
I will make a few comments for the benefit of the new witnesses.
All of you are joining us hybrid. You will notice, at the bottom of your screen, that you can select the appropriate channel for interpretation, either English or French. You will each be given five minutes for opening remarks. I will let you know when you have one minute left. Kindly wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. I remind you that all comments need to be made through the chair.
Now, I'd like to warmly welcome all witnesses for the second panel.
First, we welcome Pierre Fortin, professor, Department of Economics, Université du Québec à Montréal.
Next, we have Héléna Roulet, director general, Carrefour le Moutier, and Olive Mukamana, coordinator of services for newcomers from the same organization.
We also have David Clinton, the editor of TheAudit.ca.
Again, up to five minutes will be given to each of you for opening remarks, and then we will proceed with rounds of questions.
Professor Fortin, you have the floor for five minutes.
Pierre Fortin Professor, Department of Economics, Université du Québec à Montréal, As an Individual
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Good morning to the committee members. I am extremely honoured by your lovely invitation to speak.
Following Prime Minister Harper, I shall start in French and end in English.
I feel comfortable appearing before your committee for two reasons. First, my own family is almost entirely made up of immigrants. All but one of my 15 children, stepchildren, and grandchildren are first or second-generation immigrants. Second, at the invitation of the Quebec immigration department, I have prepared two research reports on immigration policy since 2022. I am also a member of the national advisory committee on immigration at the C.D. Howe Institute in Toronto.
From 2016 to 2024, Canada’s annual immigration rate quadrupled. In 2024, Prime Minister Trudeau decided to slow the pace in light of the pressure—which he described as unsustainable—on housing and public services. This shift in Canada’s immigration policy, now in effect, is fully consistent with research published on the economic effects of the 2016–2024 period. There is no doubt that this is a step in the right direction.
On asylum demands specifically, Statistics Canada has estimated that in January of this year, there were over half a million asylum seekers residing in Canada, some 85% of them in Ontario and Quebec. These two provinces must therefore carry a disproportionate load of the provincial public services offered to the seekers, much of it due to social assistance expenditures.
I'm not at all an expert on asylum demands, but one does not need a Ph.D. in management to understand that a sensible approach to this problem should include the following—and by “sensible”, I mean a rigorous and humane equilibrium.
One, immediately reject claims that are obviously undeserving at the time they show up at the gate. Two, minimize all kinds of internal administrative delays in the department. Three, simplify and accelerate the currently cumbersome and lengthy hearing process. Four, make sure rejected candidates leave Canada without delay. Five, explore means of making provinces other than Ontario and Quebec more attractive to asylum seekers. Six, reach a reasonable agreement with receiving provinces for quick reimbursements of allowable expenses.
For foreign inspiration, I urge you to look carefully at the phases of the asylum procedure that Denmark and Germany's social democratic governments currently apply.
Beyond the matter of asylum demands, I would make the following additional suggestions.
Firstly, align immigration policy along the lines that the Canadian population wants, and do not be misled by the errors of business lobbies that reject any moderation of immigration.
Secondly, as recommended by our C.D. Howe committee, let immigration be guided by the rigorous building of the long-term human capital base of the economy, and not by short-term fixes that prioritize lower-skilled workers or by non-economic objectives such as increasing francophone immigration outside of Quebec.
Thirdly, avoid denying that the use of French is declining in Quebec and claiming that the English minority is under threat in the province.
Lastly, give Quebec full control over management of the international mobility program in the province.
Thank you very much.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz
Thank you so much, Mr. Fortin.
Ms. Roulet, you have the floor for five minutes.
Héléna Roulet Director General, Carrefour le Moutier
Thank you. I will be sharing my speaking time with my colleague, Olive Mukamana.
Good morning. On behalf of Carrefour le Moutier, its team, and the people we support on a daily basis, I would like to thank you for giving us the opportunity to speak today about the reality faced by asylum seekers, particularly in our case, within the Longueuil metropolitan area on the South Shore, across from Montreal.
Let me briefly explain who we are. Carrefour le Moutier is a frontline community organization whose mission is to welcome, listen to, and empower anyone going through a difficult time or a period of transition, so that they can regain their strength and ability to take action. We are mandated by the Quebec ministère de l'Immigration, de la Francisation et de l'Intégration to support asylum seekers during their settlement and search for housing.
Over the past year, through all our initiatives, we have supported more than 1,105 asylum seekers with their settlement process, access to their rights, administrative procedures and addressing their many needs. Over the past three years, we have seen an average increase of 20% in the number of asylum seekers we support.
I will now turn the floor over to my colleague, Ms. Mukamana, to talk about the issues.
Olive Mukamana Coordinator of Services for Newcomers, Carrefour le Moutier
Thank you, Ms. Roulet.
Today we are sharing our first-hand accounts of the realities we regularly encounter in our work with asylum seekers.
One of the main issues we want to talk about today is access to housing. We know that there is constant pressure on the rental market and that affordable housing is in short supply. Asylum seekers also face barriers such as discrimination and a lack of awareness of their status, requiring them to provide things they cannot provide because they are newcomers, such as their credit history. All of this limits their access to housing in general.
Then there is access to services, including legal services, which are difficult to access for immigrants in general, and more particularly for asylum seekers. Since their journey involves legal matters, they need legal representation.
Access to health and social services is also difficult. Like any vulnerable person whose journey is quite complex, these people have physical and psychological needs, but their access to health services is often limited because of a lack of knowledge or understanding of the coverage offered by the interim federal health program.
As a frontline organization, we act as a facilitator of access to care and as a community actor in an intercultural context. Sometimes we provide training to service providers so that they better understand the services that this medical coverage can provide access to, but there are still barriers to access that are simply related to a lack of knowledge of this coverage.
On the other hand, as a community organization, we are constantly adapting. While resources are limited, whether human resources or financial resources, we are forced to adapt to meet the significant needs of people in vulnerable situations, including asylum seekers. This situation, where community organizations have to adapt and do a lot with little, can’t last. They need stable financial support.
Coordinator of Services for Newcomers, Carrefour le Moutier
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I’m going to pass it back to Ms. Roulet.
Director General, Carrefour le Moutier
Thank you.
Our recommendations are as follows.
In addition to our expertise in the field, we support the position of our Quebec coalition, the Table de concertation des organismes au service des personnes réfugiées et immigrantes. According to this position, any distribution of asylum seekers among the provinces must be carried out with a view to respecting the fundamental rights of asylum seekers, ensuring access to adequate legal services, involving community organizations in the distribution strategy, and eliminating barriers to integration and inclusion, particularly regarding language learning, employability, and access to social support programs, as well as funding tailored to the realities and needs of community organizations on the ground that support these individuals.
In fact, we strongly advocate for an approach focused on prevention, coordination and collaboration among the various actors and stakeholders. In our view, such an approach not only facilitates a smoother transition for individuals but also recognizes the social contribution of each of them.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz
Thank you, Ms. Roulet and Ms. Mukamana.
We now have five minutes for Mr. Clinton of TheAudit.ca, starting now.
David Clinton Publisher, TheAudit.ca
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I really appreciate the opportunity to participate today.
To make myself useful, I'll try to bring some data that provides a bit of background and context and speaks to what's happening and where we might want to move going forward.
In a way, reallocation is already happening. According to Statistics Canada, the proportion of asylum seekers has been growing a lot faster in New Brunswick, Saskatchewan and Manitoba. It's growing everywhere in Ontario. The growth from the third quarter of 2023 to the first quarter of 2026 was 179%, or something like that. There's significant growth in the refugee population, but in those provinces—New Brunswick, Saskatchewan and Manitoba—the growth has been much faster. They're small numbers when you look at them as raw numbers, but it's a trend that is steady and persistent. Perhaps it's worth trying to understand why that's happening and to see if we can encourage it and make it grow.
We also have data tracking tax filers from their postadmission years—that is, the five or six years after they're admitted as permanent residents—and in which province they file their taxes. I don't know how much income they report—I wouldn't have access to that, obviously—but I know in which province they're filing their taxes.
We see that there is stability, by and large. As a predictor of how refugee and then permanent resident populations will move, for most provinces, 80% or so will stay in the province of admission. There isn't a lot of mobility. There are exceptions, and when there are exceptions, they tend to move to Alberta, Ontario and British Columbia. That really echoes how interprovincial migration happens in the population in general. They tend to move away from Quebec. If there's any large movement away from a province, it's from Quebec. Again, that isn't directly relevant to what we're talking about here today, but perhaps that behaviour is a predictor of how populations move in the country.
Mr. Jacques reported the extent of the refugee population within homeless shelters in Peel a few years ago, at least. I have data. The most recently available data from the City of Toronto from the first quarter of 2026 is that in Toronto, where they apparently have not separated out the two populations in the municipal shelters, the refugee population makes up 39% of the beds in Toronto shelters. That is unsustainable. Aside from the cost, it is clearly pushing local homeless people out of shelters. There is obviously federal money coming in to support the system to some degree, but I don't know if money is the solution there. There is a drain on the system.
In general, I think we could all agree—I think it's obvious—that the underlying base problem that's driving these stresses is the backlog of IRB decisions. There are 500,000 people waiting in the system for a resolution to their applications, and there's no mathematical way that the IRB members could ever process them in a meaningful period of time. For context, in 2025, there were 395 active IRB members. By “active”, the reporting I saw said anybody who's delivered 20 or more decisions in the past year is considered active, so there are only 395 active members.
It's not possible for them to process...so you want to triage. There are two triage approaches we might use. One is speeding up credential recognition. All provinces and the federal government have stood behind the idea of allowing foreign professionals in high-need areas to get in quickly. This is a great way to do that. Two is integrating AI models with human review so that you can quickly flag obvious decisions—this applicant will definitely come in, but that applicant would definitely be rejected—for human review.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz
Thank you so much, Mr. Clinton.
That completes all the opening witness statements. We are going to begin the rounds of questions. We'll begin with six-minute rounds.
Mr. Ho, you'll begin with six minutes. It starts now.
Conservative
Vincent Ho Conservative Richmond Hill South, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
My questions are for Mr. Clinton at TheAudit.ca.
Mr. Clinton, you previously talked about how immigration levels may be shaped by political incentives and stakeholder pressure. Could you elaborate a little more on this point?