Evidence of meeting #42 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was retailers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton
Members, I have six on the list here, and we need to deal with the question on the motion as well. I know that some of you have not had a chance to speak yet, while some have already spoken, but let's go as quickly as we can, with a couple of short questions, maybe two minutes maximum. Let's move on as best we can.
Ms. Glover, go ahead.
Conservative
Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to also bring up the fact that we are looking at a motion that would ask us to suspend Nutrition North Canada for a year. I appreciate that in your speech you've actually addressed some of the reasons why it would be next to impossible to do this: contracts are ending, Canada Post is obviously transitioning out, and employees are being transferred. You've also talked about potential legal implications for the crown.
Then you mentioned financial interests, which I find very interesting: you say that some of the views of the committee witnesses really may have been as a result of some financial interests. Never was that more clear, for me anyway, than when Canadian North was here to say that they are not able to get contracts under the old food mail program and that First Air almost has a monopoly in their area. Then, of course, First Air came and said they want to continue the way they are. Well, of course they do, because their financial interests are being vocalized in this forum, and I appreciate that; they have every right to do that.
But in the long term, is this about how we get the food to the table? Is this not about getting nutritious food to the table at a reasonable price for northerners? Isn't it about the consumer and not about the retailer?
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Yes, I have to agree with you. If there were a way for us to press a button and to have the consumer at the other end get the subsidy...we would love to have gone down that route. Right now, the technology did not allow us to be able to have that kind of direct contact.
I would say that in the future, with advances in terms of technology at the till, where in some of our big chains now you can see how much you saved on your bill, I would certainly want to see that evolution. But for now, on the best way we could change the dynamics of the way the program works.... And as you said, focus less about how it gets up there and let the market decide that, and focus more on what exactly is being consumed and measuring the outcomes in the longer term as well in terms of, we hope, better health outcomes of the program, rather than measuring whether airlines are satisfied or not...that's where we want to focus our energy.
Conservative
Conservative
Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB
That ties into my last question for you. It's running down the same track that Mr. Lemay was running down with regard to, once again, people coming to committee and suggesting they need points of entry because jobs might be lost there, or there are going to be rotten bananas that are going to get up north, and we have to have a way to hold people to account for that.
But under the old program there was no accountability for rotten food because there was no insurance. Is that right?
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
That's right.
Conservative
Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB
And yet, under Nutrition North Canada, when we hold the retailer to account, they have insurance, so the consumer now has the option of compensation--if I'm correct in what I've learned in committee--because there is some insurance.
How would we go back with this motion that Monsieur Lévesque is suggesting? How would that affect points of entry? Wouldn't it just collapse entirely the progress we've made on Nutrition North if we adopted this motion and put points of entry, etc., back in place? We'd lose the insurance. We'd lose everything that we've made progress on for the consumer, wouldn't we?
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I think you're answering your own question--
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
As I said, my job is to loyally implement what the government has asked me to do and to explain, clarify, and defend how we're doing it, making sure that on April 1, it's all in place. My feeling, based on the work we've done, is that we would have some serious difficulties moving the clock back and some significant cost implications that at the end of the day would affect the consumer.
Conservative
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Again, I'll let Jamie comment on that, but the ultimate insurance for a consumer is to not buy the food. Or if you buy the food, and the food makes you sick, you do as we would do. You go back and say, hey, you're selling bad meat or whatever. We function the same way.
Jamie, is there anything you want to add on that?
Director General, Devolution and Territorial Relations Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
The shipping industry has ways of offsetting a product that doesn't make it correctly within the agreements those retailers and wholesalers will have with the shipping industry.
To add to your analysis, though, the 36¢, which we opened up with on that table, accounts for $7 million. The other $7 million is a result of delisting non-perishable and non-food items. That adds up to $14 million.
Without any accountability and the data provisions that are in the existing program, there is probably anywhere from $14 million to $20 million to $25 million--who knows?--a third of the program that could be going to interests that are not being passed on to the consumer. There is no way I can sit here and say that the majority of these funds are going through to the consumer, whereas in Nutrition North Canada, I'll be able to do that. It may not be 100%, but it certainly would be 95% plus.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton
Thank you, Ms. Glover.
I have Mr. Bagnell, then Mr. Weston, Mr. D'Amours, and Mr. Russell.
Go ahead, Mr. Bagnell.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
We don't have much time, and I have a bunch of questions, so please give really short answers.
Are there any costs in the new program, out of the $60 million or whatever it is, that are INAC costs?
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
We already had a small envelope for our costs. We had a small team. So yes, we continue to have some of those costs to cover INAC salaries and operations.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
It was the same in the old program as it will be in the new program, roughly?
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
It's going to be a little bit more in the new program. Again, it depends on how the claims processing goes ahead. At the beginning, we'll be doing more manual work. That means having a little bit more staff than we had in the past, yes.
Liberal
Director General, Devolution and Territorial Relations Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Actually, when you add up Canada Post employees monitoring the program. plus INAC's former food mail employees, it's actually lower. I have approval for 14 resources. It was 17.5 under the old program.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
We had a chart showing that in the old program what was actually spent was approaching $60 million. That's what's being set aside in the new program in the first year, $60 million, right?
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
Okay.
How many registered retailers are there in Yukon, in Dawson and Whitehorse? You mentioned that you had some.
Director General, Devolution and Territorial Relations Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
We talked to at least 12. The one in Dawson--