Evidence of meeting #42 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was retailers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB
I thank you for that. It does sound as if this has a much better opportunity for the benefit of the residents of the north, from what I've heard and seen at this point in time.
I know there were some concerns around the residents of Old Crow. Is there anything else you would like to add in terms of ensuring they're being treated fairly and equitably in relation to other communities? Are there any other items you'd like to expand upon?
4:50 p.m.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Jamie, do you want to comment?
4:50 p.m.
Director General, Devolution and Territorial Relations Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
On the situation with Old Crow right now when you travel, some people will show up at the airline counter and have things shipped up through Air North to the community. The airline is the shipper as well as the transporter. That leads to us subsidizing the transporter under the old program—because it was a transportation subsidy—which is making its own demand, frankly, and you have no separation of duties within that type of structure.
We have no evidence of any abuse, but it sets up a condition that is unlike that anywhere else in the country. If you had 5,000 Inuit or first nation peoples in Ottawa or Winnipeg doing the same practice, the $58 million would have been $158 million, I would project, because of the demands that could have been placed on the program. You would also not develop a northern retail environment that creates jobs and other conditions for people to live in the north. That's about all I would add to my previous answer.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
I will keep my questions relatively brief.
In your speaking notes, you indicated that the rates were introductory and we'd be updated on information on shipping costs and food prices as they become available. I have two questions. What kind of review or monitoring process do you have in place that's going to look at things like this but that also will examine the kinds of impacts that it could be having on communities, either intended or unintended?
4:55 p.m.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Well, there will be a two-step answer, if I can say that. I'll talk about the second step first, and I'll ask Mr. Tibbetts to talk about the controls and monitoring.
The second part of the answer is we have an advisory board of northerners who will be looking at, broadly speaking, the performance of the program, but also will be taking in commentary and testimony from people who feel that things are not going well or the rates are too high or the subsidy's not being passed on. That advisory board is going to be a powerful instrument to help with that accountability.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
On that point, do they have a secretariat or something? I notice that it looks like a pretty broad cross-section of advisory board members.
4:55 p.m.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
We'll provide whatever secretarial supports, but they will be working independently, and they will have an opportunity to speak directly to the minister and provide their advice--not through us. We're just there to support them.
Maybe Jamie can talk a bit more about the specifics.
4:55 p.m.
Director General, Devolution and Territorial Relations Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
The rates are called “introductory” because they're intended to be updated periodically as we get more information. With respect to the framework for the new program, I'll be receiving price data as well as cost data and we'll be able to adjust as we go. When we started, we were using 2009-10 food mail program data by community and forecasts for next year.
So if some of those forecasts are off and conditions change, we'll have to adjust our rates accordingly, within the envelope. The data that we're going to receive under the program will allow us to monitor consumption as well as what's shipped.
I think these rates are relatively close to what Canada Post is paying now. In a couple of instances, certain companies have said they think the rate could be higher in one community or another. It's because we've used, wherever we could, two or three different market rates. It's basically an indicator that the company may be paying higher than other people are paying. We are trying to keep the low-water mark and not the high-water mark within these rate structures.
Finally, the rates are not intended to be a 100% subsidy of airfare costs. It's to make it a more acceptable, cheaper price and level the playing field. If we were provided additional funds, we could make those rates more aggressive. But at this point, we've distributed them so that everybody is paying something. In some communities, like those in Manitoba--I think you asked about that last time I was here--some of those communities are actually paying significantly less than Canada Post rates, so they're still under the floor. They have not lost anything under the new rates. So it sort of fits in with that.
4:55 p.m.
Director General, Devolution and Territorial Relations Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Could--
4:55 p.m.
Director General, Devolution and Territorial Relations Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
In your opening remarks, you were asking about other things we've done. Did you want...?
4:55 p.m.
Director General, Devolution and Territorial Relations Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
The subsidy rates were posted on December 1, as we promised. They are introductory rates. We'll keep evolving them. We're not going to be changing them soon. We'll see what the industry says and consider further analysis as it comes in.
We announced the advisory board on November 25, and we have regular conference calls with the remaining members. We're going to set up our first meeting, probably in late January, just to have a discussion on forward agenda and to get them trained a little bit on the program to get them started.
We've been spending time analyzing the potential delays in the program, of course, and we've developed guidebooks for applicants. Recently, we were talking to people in Whitehorse about some of the criteria. On that guidebook, we're about ready to start going out and meeting with all the retailers and wholesalers we know and starting to sign people up in the first quarter of the next calendar year.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Just on the advisory board, if there are unintended consequences, other than what you're monitoring, you're suggesting that community members contact advisory board members?
4:55 p.m.
Director General, Devolution and Territorial Relations Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
They certainly may. They can contact me as well. Our intention here is to find a fair and equitable distribution of the funds that are available. So if we have it wrong.... The industry people are coming to me now, and if there are three or four or two stores in one location, and one is happy and one is not, it usually means that one has a better rate than the other, negotiated with the supplier, perhaps.
5 p.m.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
But the first point of contact should be with the retailer. If people don't like what they see in their store, that's where they should start. The retailers know that they have to be there to listen. They have to be able to demonstrate to their clients how the subsidy is being passed on. So if a pint of milk is costing two dollars more in a community, and he can't explain why, then that's the first point of contact. We want to encourage that discussion to happen at that level.
5 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton
Thank you, Ms. Crowder.
Next will be Mr. Lemay, then Ms. Glover, Mr. Bagnell, Mr. Lévesque and Mr. Weston.
Go ahead, Mr. Lemay.
5 p.m.
Bloc
Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
May we have a list of members of the advisory board? I'd like to have that, please, if you can send it to us. Perhaps I saw it somewhere.
5 p.m.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
It's on the website.
5 p.m.
Bloc
Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
That's what I was waiting for. You went exactly where I wanted you to go. I know it's on your website. Don't worry, I went and consulted it.
What happens for those people who don't have the Internet in the small villages? What do they do?
5 p.m.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
There is Internet access in all the villages, in all the communities. It's a very powerful medium in the north. They definitely don't have the same capacity as we have here, but the people in the north are quite advanced with regard to Internet use.
Yes, we have other ways of communicating those names. We will ensure that the aboriginal organizations and territorial governments, for example, know that there are people... These people are quite well known in their communities. For example, there's Nellie Cournoyea, who is well known. She is a former premier of the Northwest Territories.
I can read you the list now.
5 p.m.
Bloc
Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
No, thank you. I was setting a trap for you. I wanted to be sure—