Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 14th, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

I have another member on the list. However, I think we now have an indication as to how everyone is voting. I'm not sure there's anything additional that needs to be on the record. If there is....

Ms. Hughes.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I just want to reiterate the fact that I think this would be a perfect opportunity for us to get a better understanding. We are dealing with land use and sustainable economic development. What better community to go to than Attawapiskat? Here's a community that has done some economic development. We would have a better view of the land use that was done, what has worked and what hasn't worked in that area. Obviously the fact that the community is in dire need at this point shows that there have been many challenges with being able to develop a mine up there, and the lack of resource sharing that has occurred there. So I would actually support this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

I appreciate those comments. As the motion is written, though, it would not be part of the study. Therefore, there would have to be some modifications to it.

Let's go to the vote right now so we can get on with the meeting today.

(Motion negatived)

Ms. Bennett, we'll return to your time now, and you will continue with your question. Just for your information, you are about two and a half minutes into your time.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

My question is for Chief Toulouse.

I felt that your putting the resource benefit sharing and actually the focus on the treaties ahead of anything else that can happen was very important. It was quite surprising that only six of the communities have been able to avail themselves of the First Nations Land Management Act.

Just to start, how many of your communities would be interested in a fee simple model?

[Chief Angus Toulouse]

I can't think of one. As an immediate starting point, no.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Going back to the treaties and working out resource benefit sharing, what would that process look like?

[Chief Angus Toulouse]

What it would look like is understanding what the spirit and intent of those treaties are and what sharing means, what peaceful co-existence means. As an example, in using Attawapiskat, which is what you were just talking about, the chief and the council and the people would recognize that they have a traditional territory that industry is very interested in. They have the De Beers mines. And yet we see the situation; you've seen the situation. It shouldn't be that way.

We know there is much to be said in terms of the royalties and everything else that everybody else is getting rich off, the traditional territories, and we continue to see the problems.

I was speaking with Chief Spence. She recognizes that they're doing a fair bit of work just on the treaty aspect, what we're talking about right now. That's their starting point and that's where they want to go. I think they've been clear in terms of feeling the brunt of blaming the victim. It's not a starting point as far as the chief is concerned, in terms of moving forward, in terms of what we're talking about, in terms of the kind of sharing that has to take place in terms of the economic benefits.

Just last week I was at a gathering where they honoured two people in all of Canada in terms of what's called the Canadian Aboriginal Business Awards. One of them was Greg Koostachin. Guess where he's from? Attawapiskat. There's a lot to be said in terms of certainly some of the success--at least there's one--but there's just so much more that needs to be there.

So they do have a model. They do have a model in terms of the kind of economic activity that could go on. It's not going to happen with the kind of relationship that's there now in terms of sending a third party to a community that has ideas, that has solutions, that certainly wants to provide those recommendations to its people so that the people can certainly be behind any of the economic development activity.

Right now they're mired in basic infrastructure. That's where they're at. They really want to change the issues around education, the issues around potable water and proper housing for their people.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Carolyn, you only have 30 seconds left if there's something you would like to pass on.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

No, I think that's fine.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you.

Mr. Clarke, for seven minutes.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for coming here today.

Mr. Trump, we've heard about the costs associated for first nation land managers, from travel to accommodations. There is a gamut of costs associated for them to attend the schooling or the education process. I'm curious about the communities. The problems they're facing right now are that some communities have them. Some may have one, two, or three, hypothetically speaking. How are some of these issues being resolved if one leaves and another one takes over?

This is where I'm going with this. How could other first nation communities reduce the costs associated with the training when one community has it and one doesn't?

[Grant Trump]

Thank you. I think you've brought up an excellent point.

We've looked at and know about the whole concept of economic development officers in first nations and how they fit within the community. Our organization has strongly supported looking at environment or sustainability development officers. Those individuals would then liaise with the schools, liaise with the band and council, deal with issues around water and waste water and issues around solid waste on reserve and adjacent lands.

If we had an individual there with the appropriate skills and knowledge to do that, it would become a much more permanent position. I believe what you're talking about is this movement of individuals back and forth for two or three months, the high turnover rate. As we all know, that is extremely costly. There is no legacy or knowledge left when that individual moves. By creating an environment or sustainability development officer on reserve, that would allow for that full-time position to allow that capacity-building within it and for the community to take responsibility for its own water/wastes and for its own solid waste and other land issues associated with it.

We also know that when you have individuals like that in particular areas such as reserves, it tends to lead to their working with each other between reserves to look at ways in which they can assist each other or help each other.

We do recognize—and I know you recognize—that with the demographics of aboriginal communities we're talking about a population that's very young. As a result, we have to have these mentors who are going to be able to demonstrate to these people how the environment and those environmental activities fit in with their traditional ecological knowledge and with the elders as it moves. That is going to be, in my opinion, what is going to make a difference for the future.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

When we talk about retention, keeping the first nations members in their communities or keeping them employed, what suggestions do you have for keeping those first nations land managers in place, keeping them in their jobs?

[Grant Trump]

Retention strategies no doubt require that you keep the individuals' interest and that they feel as though they're making a real difference within their community.

If you have a defined position in which they are in charge of very specific activities around water, waste water, around solid waste.... Liaising with the schools, I would suggest to you, is going to be a major mechanism to retain staff. It's going to be a major mechanism for them to be able to give presentations to band and council and to the general community about the importance of environmental activities tied to their solid waste and water and waste water.

I think it's going to be a matter of their need to have that knowledge and know they're making a difference and that the position is secure. Their recommendations will become part of the operation of that particular reserve.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

After the training, what feedback are you receiving from the managers?

[Grant Trump]

The feedback we get after they receive training, in most cases, is the fact that we have changed their lives. They did not recognize there were these opportunities for them to do these particular activities.

They're able to now go within their family, within their family unit, within their community, and make a difference in that community.

They may well leave, as you pointed out, but we know—and they've told us—that their plan is to go back to their community and to assist their community. I believe we make a tremendous difference in people's lives. We've heard people say they didn't know they could have such a job, that such an opportunity was available for them, and that they could make a living doing that.

It does make a real difference in people's lives.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

You have two minutes.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Once they've looked at the first nations lands management career, how many have gone back to university? What types of courses are they seeing? Are they maintaining that same syllabus? What other careers are they looking at?

[Grant Trump]

There's a whole variety of careers they can move into, whether they be technical, communications, humanities, social science, science, or engineering.

I believe, as well, that we have to recognize that these folks are indeed looking for what they can do in the future and how they can make a difference. As part of this, the environment is the ideal place for them to demonstrate there can be a difference to the younger people within the community. It contributes to the human health and environment of the entire community. Universities and colleges are open to developing curriculum that will meet the particular needs.

As well, we know that a tremendous amount of environmental work is done on reserve and on traditional lands or near traditional lands or crown lands, whether it be impact assessment work and so on and so forth or land use planning. A lot of those plans just end up in a filing cabinet because no one on reserve has the ability to fully understand the legality and the variety of technical information that's in it.

An individual who had that ability would be able to relay that information to the population within the community and indeed make a difference and find considerable economies, instead of hiring another consultant to deal with the first consultant's work, to interpret that particular work.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

We're looking at more training. I'm just kind of curious: what are first nations communities doing to try to reduce some of the costs associated with training? Are they looking at training one person, or are they trying to get two people trained for the same dollars? What types of mechanisms are in place right now to try to reduce that cost in order to get more people trained?

[Grant Trump]

Well, I believe we're looking at it in a realistic fashion, and that is, how many could be employed?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Just a short answer. Maybe that is the answer.

[Grant Trump]

That is the answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you. I do apologize; we're trying to keep to our timeframes.

Ms. Hughes, go ahead for five minutes.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Trump, one of the programs that you're offering is land-use planning. Do you work in conjunction with the National Aboriginal Lands Managers Association, and do they deliver your program?