Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 14th, 2012

[Chief Angus Toulouse]

Six are operational—

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

And five are in the process or have applied. Have none of the others applied to be in the FNLM regime?

[Chief Angus Toulouse]

That's as far as I know; that's the only data I have. I haven't talked to all of the 133 communities to tell me which ones had entertained it.

Let me just give you an example. I was chief of my community for six terms. When this came out, there was an interest initially, until we realized what we had to give up, which is essentially allowing federal jurisdiction. We said that doesn't make sense. If this is about us taking over and ensuring that we have the capacity, why are we making it clear that the federal jurisdiction would come in and prevail?

Our council said no; they were not interested. There are many first nations, I would suggest, that have the same kind of issue with the current policy, the way it stands.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

You talked a little bit today about ATRs and some of the problems and some of the other experiences. Can part of the problem be generically referred to as third-party encumbrances? Is that an issue that you see comes up frequently in the ATR process?

[Chief Angus Toulouse]

In the specific example that I gave—

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Pardon me. I have to jump in here. I do apologize. We want to be mindful of Mr. Trump's time. I'm going to suspend the meeting for a few minutes so that members can greet Mr. Trump as he's leaving. We'll come back and it will be Mr. Seeback's time to complete. Mr. Trump has a plane to catch.

Thank you so much for being available to us, and thanks so much for your testimony today. We have really appreciated it.

[Grant Trump]

Thank you so much for having me. It has been my pleasure, and you all have my coordinates. Please feel free to give me a call. I'd be pleased to help you in any way I can.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Mr. Seeback, we'll continue the meeting. I do apologize for cutting in there. I just wanted to be mindful of Mr. Trump's time. I do apologize.

Chief, we'll give you some time not on the clock to just refresh where you were, if you recall.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Great. So I was talking briefly about ATRs and issues with third-party encumbrances, things like hydro easements, gas lines, and other things like that.

Have they been an impediment to the ATR process in Ontario, in your experience?

[Chief Angus Toulouse]

I'll use the example of Alderville, since I've used it a couple of times. Chief JimBob Marsden has advised that in his approach, understanding and recognizing that there are municipalities nearby, he has had 100% support of his additions to reserve.

What he's saying now is that since 1996 he has had support, but recently there was an election and he's recognizing that support may not be as total as he has had in the past with his economic development. But he recognizes that's something that he's going to deal with. Again, at some point—I think that's what he's saying—there may be some need to do further work, but in the two proposals and before this last election, he had 100% support.

He recognizes that to go through it again, he doesn't know what level of support he would have, as much as he would love to say that he still has the 100% support of the municipalities nearby where he has the FIT contract.

In Chief Miskokomon's case, it's a little bit more complex. He's saying the municipality is essentially saying there is a tax burden that needs to be met. The first nation has met those things, but what they're saying.... What the chief has said is that he can understand having to cover that for one or two years, but he's saying that we've been going on and on and on, and it's the regional office. He's been in the courts for 17 years trying to get this recognized as an addition to his reserve. He's saying he's been paying and they can't afford it.

He's saying the federal government needs to be the one that picks up after a point in time if there is no movement on their ability to add to the reserve. These are outstanding issues that he's saying are policy issues.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you.

Mr. Seeback, your time has expired. I do apologize, but that's the reality.

Ms. Hughes, you have five minutes.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you very much.

If you wanted to continue, I'm okay with that. I did have some questions.

Again, it fell with the ATR because we had Margaret Buist, director general of lands and environmental management from the Department of Aboriginal Affairs, who basically indicated that additions to reserve policy and the associated procedures are time-consuming, expensive, and complex. We had Chief Whiteduck talk about that as well and the difficulties and barriers they face in dealing with the Department of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development, and he noted that more money for the Department of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development is not the solution.

Instead he was saying he felt they could work more effectively and efficiently. Chief Whiteduck told us about the case of I think three-tenths of an acre that took four years to settle. He said nobody has ever asked first nations for input on how to improve Aboriginal Affairs.

Would you like to comment on that, on how important that would be for first nations to have input on some of the challenges they are facing with the Department of Aboriginal Affairs?

[Chief Angus Toulouse]

Absolutely. Legislation without first nation participation at all stages will not fix the existing problem. Let me just say that. It is not going to fix the existing problem if we're not part of the whole process of correcting, improving, and streamlining the federal additions to reserve policy and process.

The biggest problem is that it is a document that's been there for quite some time. I believe that there may have been some minor revisions, again without first nation participation, back in the early part of 2000.

The first nations continue to give examples of how they are chasing their tails because of civil servants interpreting, from their point of view, what the manual says and what the policy says. There is a huge requirement for any community that tries to go through it to have quite the legal capacity to deal with it, because there's a lot of cross-referencing. There is just so much complication, if you will, in trying to ensure that the steps asked for are followed. And when you don't have any capacity at the community level to ensure that you are following every single step the way it is supposed to be done, if you miss a step, or if you fail to recognize a step, it is just a reason to send it back.

This is the experience they have had over and over and over again. Chief Miskokomon tells me, as I said, that they have been in court for 17 years trying to get this matter resolved that would allow the addition to their reserve so that the economic development can take place.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I know, for example, that Thessalon has been trying to come to terms with the government on a land claim. But this has had a negative impact on the Municipality of Huron Shores, as well.

I just want your view on this with respect to the impact on economic development, not only for that first nation but for the community as well. There are other first nations that are in a similar situation. I wonder if you'd like to comment on that, because you talked about the treaty land, and until that is basically resolved....

[Chief Angus Toulouse]

Yes, I recall talking with Chief Bisaillon of Thessalon some time ago, and he told me the situation of their economic development project. As soon as people get wind that there is a claim or a potential claim, any land or any business or any kind of development the first nation pursues triples or quadruples. It just puts the cost totally out of reach as soon as they know that a government claim may be settled with the first nation community.

A lot of their economic ventures, ideas, are not as feasible as they once were when there was clear recognition that there was going to be, again, support that would take place with regard to the local economy. In most of the first nation communities there is no real, hard business. They really depend on the local municipality to provide the construction material, housing, or whatever it may be. So there is a huge benefit, but as soon as the municipalities are aware that there is a claim, the property and the businesses that were initially looked at become unfeasible. This is what happens when you prolong the development of a business for more than 15 years. Things will change. Times change. The scenario and the individuals change in relation to the potential joint development or a specific development.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Chief.

Ms. Bennett, we'll go to you now.

The Conservatives have indicated that they'll drop one of their questions for the third round, so we'll go directly to Ms. Bennett. We'll then go to Mr. Rickford, and that will complete the third round.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

It's Valentine's Day.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

It's Valentine's Day, that's right.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

You're being nice to the red party on Valentine's Day. That's very nice.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

That's right.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

You mentioned third-party management. Seeing that this is a study on land management, I wonder if you would speak to the efficacy of third-party management and whether you think that after the first nations and crown gathering, things like what is going on right now in Attawapiskat are helpful in terms of third-party management, co-management, and your experience in watching what happens in those situations.

[Chief Angus Toulouse]

It's sad, again, to see a first nation being blamed and again being the victim in third-party situations.

A lot of times the federal government invokes the third-party rule when there are insufficient resources at the community level to manage the challenges there. In the case of Attawapiskat, we all know and recognize the huge costs of living, the huge costs of transporting material there for construction.

We all recognize that even way back, when they set up the reserve to begin with, the elders of the day had wanted to pick different spots, something more feasible to the longevity of their existence in the area. They thought that Kashechewan was an example because the waters entered into a bay and this was where they would put the community. Again, that was certainly not with the support of the first nation, but what were they going to do back then when the Indian agent said this was where they were going to build the housing?

It was in the low flood plain. They recognize that 20 or so kilometres up the stream is a much more viable community settlement. They know that. But they haven't been listened to. And again they're going to force infrastructure development in an area that will cause future flooding. This is the nature of what they know, the traditional ecological knowledge of their territory.

That continues to happen, again without the kind of consultation that really needs to take place when the federal government makes unilateral decisions that are going to impact them and also the costs to the community.

The other thing I need to say is that as much as there have been reports of billions of dollars arriving at the first nation communities, and the public wondering how we have the situations we have, it doesn't arrive in the first nation communities. There are 633 first nation communities. There is a huge bureaucracy that has grown over a period of time. I'm not sure if it's 3,000 or 5,000 civil servants. We don't have those kinds of public civil servants in our first nation communities. We wish we did. We would have the capacity to certainly deal with many of the issues and challenges we have.

If you were to add up all of the contribution arrangements that first nations sign with the federal and provincial government, I would bet they don't tally to more than half—and I think I'm being generous when I say half—of what's being purported to be a first nation expenditure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

You have about 30 seconds.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

I guess in view of the defeated motion I would like to put notice of motion on the table now: that the committee invite Chief Theresa Spence; co-manager Clayton Kennedy; members of the council of Attawapiskat First Nation; Grand Chief Stan Louttit, of the tribal council; third-party manager Jacques Marion, of BDO Canada; and officials from Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada to appear before the committee and provide an update on the status of efforts to address the state of emergency confronting the community, no later than March 16, 2012.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

If your office would forward that to the clerk, it could be translated and over the appropriate amount of time be distributed to committee members.

Thank you for serving notice of that.

We'll turn to Mr. Rickford as the last questioner of the day. We'll turn it over to you for five minutes.