Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 12th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

I'd like to start, as always, by acknowledging that we are meeting today on the traditional territory of the Algonquin people.

Our business today is with regard to the supplementary and main estimates. We will begin that study now.

With us, we have the Minister of Indigenous Services, along with departmental officials. The minister has been given up to 10 minutes to make his opening statement and then we'll proceed with questions and answers.

Minister Miller, please introduce your staff and go ahead.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Minister of Indigenous Services]

Members of the committee, good morning.

I would like to begin by acknowledging that we come together on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin people.

It is my pleasure to be here to discuss the 2019-20 supplementary estimates (B) and the 2020-21 main estimates for the Department of Indigenous Services.

From Indigenous Services Canada, I'm joined by Sony Perron, associate deputy minister, Philippe Thompson, chief finance, results and delivery officer, Valerie Gideon, senior assistant deputy minister of the first nations and Inuit health branch, and Joanne Wilkinson, assistant deputy minister for child and family services reform.

Since its creation in 2017, our department has focused on closing socio-economic gaps and working with partners to improve access to services for first nations, Inuit and Métis. The department works in collaboration with partners to improve well-being in indigenous communities across Canada and to support indigenous peoples in assuming control of the delivery of services in their communities at the pace and in the ways they choose, of course.

Over time, it is our goal that indigenous peoples will have the capacity necessary to deliver programs and services to their peoples, and this department, and my role, will be obsolete. We are working with partners to build this capacity.

To support this essential work, the department's 2019-20 supplementary estimates (B) detail initiatives totalling approximately $1 billion. This brings total appropriations for the department to $13.8 billion for this fiscal year.

More than half of this new funding—$588.3 million—is to support the ongoing delivery of the first nations child and family services program, bringing the program's overall budget from $1.2 billion to $1.8 billion.

Members will be aware that this committee served a vital role in addressing the overrepresentation of indigenous children in care with its study of Bill C-92, an act respecting first nations, Inuit and Métis children, youth and families, which came into force at the start of this year and empowers indigenous peoples to assert their inherent jurisdiction over child and family services and the well-being of their children.

Of the amount requested for this program, $414.9 million supports the implementation of the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal rulings from 2016 to September 2019 related to first nations child and family services by funding agencies based on their actual needs and focusing on activities and programs aimed at preventing children from being taken into care.

Our government believes in supporting a prevention-based system, where the needs of first nations children come first. Funding for the first nations child and family services program has more than doubled between 2016 and 2018-19. Since 2016, we've worked with partners to implement systemic remedies in support of the needs of first nations children. This means taking steps to keep children with their families to keep them connected with their communities and their culture.

The other two major items presented in the supplementary estimates (B) are funding to support Jordan's principle and emergency management service providers.

I'd like now to turn to the main estimates for 2020-21.

For the upcoming fiscal year, the department's main estimates are $12.8 billion. This reflects a net increase of approximately $538.7 million, or 4%, compared to last year's main estimates.

Further to these estimates, the department also anticipates funding from any investments announced in budget 2020, as well as future Treasury Board decisions. This additional funding is expected to be accessed through the supplementary estimates process.

This year, the department's main estimates reflect a net increase of $483.6 million related to the transfer of individual affairs and lands and economic development programs, as well as internal services from Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada.

In addition to this, you will see increased funding related to some of the department's core priorities. For example, these estimates reflect an increase of $85.7 million for elementary and secondary education, as well as post-secondary education programs. From 2011-12 to 2018-19, actual expenditures in education have increased by about 41.7%. This is reflective of our government's commitment to ensuring that every first nations child has the best start in life and that first nations maintain control of first nations education.

You will also note that, in these estimates, $1.5 billion in funding is set aside in 2020-21 for first nations that have entered into the 10-year grant agreement, including 85 first nations that moved to the grant model last fiscal year, with additional first nations communities that will move to the grant in 2020-21.

The 10-year grant is a key initiative of our government's ongoing commitment to establish a new relationship that moves towards flexible, predictable and sustained funding for first nation communities.

I hope this presentation has provided insight into the department's supplementary estimates (B) and main estimates documents.

We have made, and are continuing to make, important changes in our relationships with first nations, Inuit and Métis. While there is still much work to do, our government's historic investments are making a difference in closing the gaps that exist and are improving the quality of life of indigenous peoples, all while advancing self-determination.

Before I end my remarks, I would like to briefly update the committee on COVID-19 as it relates to indigenous peoples in Canada, as I know you share my concerns about that. I thank those who attended the meeting with Valerie Gideon this morning for a more detailed briefing. In fact, I would invite further questions, should you so choose.

Our government is working with all levels of government, including actively supporting indigenous communities to prepare for COVID-19. This is a matter of the health and well-being of all Canadians. This is a time for jurisdictional co-operation, not divisions.

These efforts are supported through a federal-provincial-territorial special advisory committee for COVID-19 that is focused on coordination of federal, provincial, and territorial preparedness and response across Canada's health sector for all Canadians, including first nations, Inuit and Métis.

The federal government, including Indigenous Services Canada, has multiple systems in place to prepare for, detect and limit the spread of infectious diseases, including COVID-19.

In budget 2019, I would note, our government invested $211 million over five years, including $79.86 million, as the first-ever investment in health resiliency and health emergency preparedness on reserve. These investments have enabled first nations to strengthen their capacity, have allowed us to establish effective inter-jurisdictional networks, and are supporting us in our work to monitor and manage COVID-19.

My officials are working very closely with first nations communities to support them in implementing their pandemic plans, to provide surge capacity where needed, and to offer technical assistance as required.

The importance of clear, concise and timely communication and information-sharing can't be overstated. We all have a role to play in ensuring that our communications are based on the best science and the clearest recommendations. Factual, practical and clear information is essential. We're working with partners to make this information available in indigenous languages through print, radio and social media.

We have learned from past outbreaks. Accurate information is critical, and we all have a role to play in making sure that people are referring to information from trusted sources such as governments and community leadership.

My officials are working with local health directors, health workers and nurses through various social networks including with regional medical officers of health. These medical officers of health are also working with provincial partners in ensuring that supports to first nations, whether they live on reserves or not, are fully integrated into provincial plans.

The department has a network of regional emergency management and communicable disease emergency coordinators, as well as regional medical officers. Together, they advise and support first nations across provinces and lead public health emergency preparedness and response as required.

While recognizing that, in the territories, primary health care is delivered by the territorial governments, my department is working closely with indigenous partners and territorial governments to share information and prepare for COVID-19 and will be available to provide surge capacity support in a timely manner if needed.

While we have in place solid planning, monitoring and surge capacity, we also need to be very vigilant.

Proximity-related factors, such as overcrowding, and other determinants of health can increase the risks for some populations, including indigenous peoples. This is why we need to be focused on supporting communities on an ongoing basis and ensuring that we are able to reduce risks where possible.

I would now be happy to answer any questions that the committee may have.

Meegwetch.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Thank you, Minister.

We have the first round of questioning of six minutes each, starting with Mr. Vidal.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister and your team for being here with us today. We do appreciate it. We know you're busy.

I have many questions and, as you know, very little time, so I'm going to respectfully ask that you respect my time with concise answers so I can get through some of my questions, if that's all right.

I do have some concerns about your department's plans. There's an old saying, “what gets measured gets done”. Would you agree with that?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I would agree with that. I would agree that we also like to measure outcomes.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you.

In the most recent departmental results report issued by your department, if you look at some of the summaries in GC InfoBase, it identifies that 65 indicators were used to measure the performance of your department. Only 13 of those indicators are identified as having been met at the time of that report. That's a 20% success rate. Would you consider that to be acceptable?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

What I consider unacceptable is the socio-economic gap that exists between indigenous and non-indigenous peoples. The investments we have made, MP Vidal, are historic and they are but a start in closing that socio-economic gap. It would be wrong to state that this can be achieved overnight or in one term. If any of my team wants to speak to those indicators, I would encourage them to do so, but this has to be put in a much broader context.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Forty-four of the indicators are considered unspecified, meaning that the targets have either not been set, nor results measured for some reason. Even in the 2021 plan, which was just released, many of these same targets have still not been set. We're three years into this now. I understand your comments about investing, and I appreciate that, but we're talking of a 66% increase and almost $18 billion now in your 2020-21 plan compared with 2015-16.

Even the PBO report that was issued this morning says, “it is difficult to determine whether services have improved as a result of increased total budgetary spending.” I would challenge you. Do you feel that indigenous people are being well-served by your department when there seems to be very little expectation that the targets will be met, or even set?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I think in the global context, those investments, while they are historic and shouldn't be understated, are addressing the cost of inaction that has existed over decades. We have closed the financial gap in education on reserve. That is something all Canadians should be proud of. The results will come, and we know that graduations are the same or above non-indigenous graduation rates when that gap is closed, and when that devolution occurs to indigenous communities with respect to education or any other matter. These are ambitious goals, and I would concede that.

I would ask that my staff talk about those indicators specifically, but there is a cost to inaction and we see that every day. There's also a cost to action, and that's precisely what we've implemented.

[Sony Perron, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services]

One of the challenges in establishing targets is that when we are co-developing policies and programs, we also work with partners to establish the targets, which will determine the measurement that we will follow going forward. For some, for example education, we still have work to do with partners to get to the definitive measurement, but the tools and the processes being measured are in place. However, before we are able to publish and definitively say this is the target, we have to have the mechanics done and the partnerships developed with first nations, Inuit and Métis when it's applicable to establish that.

For example, we have put money forward for 10-year funding of the first nations health survey that will provide us with some data. We did the same thing last year with the confirmation of ongoing, long-term funding for the Inuit health survey. Therefore, we are putting in place the mechanisms that will allow the department to report on progress against the indicator, and establish targets that are agreed with the partners.

You've probably seen on tuberculosis, for example, last year there was an announcement on what we were planning to achieve as a target: a 50% reduction by 2025, the elimination of TB in the territories by 2030, in partnership with Inuit and territorial government.

It's ambitious, and we are putting the measurements in place to support the reporting on them.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you.

Let me move on to a very specific example of your targets. The indicator identified as the percentage of first nations and Inuit communities with access to mental wellness services was set at 50%, with the target to be achieved by March of 2020. That was in the 2019-20 departmental plan. In the 2020-21 departmental plan, that target now has been adjusted from 50% down to 34%, with a target of March 2021 instead of March 2020—a lower target and a longer time to get there. I use this as an example because it's an indicator of many of the measurements and indicators in your plan.

Why are so many targets adjusted each year to match performance instead of performance being adjusted to get to the targets? In my world, I always expected performance to reach targets. I didn't adjust my targets to match performance.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

You have 30 seconds.

[Sony Perron]

Valerie, do you have any information about the change in the mental health targets?

[Valerie Gideon, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, First Nations and Inuit Health Branch, Department of Indigenous Services]

For sure.

The mental wellness teams have been substantially increased, but for sure some of the mental wellness teams...and they're all set up by first nations. They are driven by first nations. Their makeup, where they are located—all of that is determined by first nations. Some of the leadership processes to get to the place where the decision was made as to where they would be established took a bit longer, particularly in some of the more complex provinces where many players participate in those conversations. We were also able to negotiate some innovative partnerships. In Ontario, for instance, they are co-funded now by the province, which has enabled us to double the number of mental wellness teams.

Realistically, it has meant that it's taken a little bit longer for those teams to be set up. We've adjusted the target with our partners.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Thank you.

Ms. Zann, you have six minutes.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much, Minister, for being here again today.

I'd like to move to the issue of water, to drinking water in particular. Co-developing and investing in distinctions-based community infrastructure plans and addressing the critical needs of first nation, Inuit and Métis communities includes working in collaboration with partners to identify public water and wastewater system needs, develop infrastructure capital plans and design, and implement management plans for the operation and maintenance of clean water and wastewater systems. I've always said that clean air and clean water are really human rights. As World Water Day approaches, how does government plan to lift all long-term drinking water advisories on reserve by 2021? What challenges do we need to overcome? How is government going beyond this commitment to proactively work on sustainable water and wastewater systems?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Thank you for the excellent question. From day one this government, in budget 2016, invested a multi-billion dollar envelope to address the unacceptable long-term water advisory situation on reserves in Canada. To date, we have removed 88 long-term advisories, as well as preventing a number of them. The larger projects, which required buildup time in, you will concede, a very short period for an unacceptable situation, remain to be lifted. We're very confident, with the coming summer...in the coming months to be able to lift a great number of them.

I would remind this committee, because I think it's very important, that as of September 30, 2019, so a few months ago, more than $1.3 billion in targeted funding was invested to support 574 water and wastewater projects, including the 265 that have now been completed. These projects will serve close to half a million people. These are projects that are complex in nature for a variety of reasons—the geological situations, the remoteness of communities—and we are cognizant of that. We have always looked at the indicators and the constantly moving scenario as opposed to simply investing a large amount in infrastructure in 2016. We were constantly engaged with communities that we talked to on a weekly basis to ensure update and partnership. We knew that, and going into budget 2019, we invested hundreds of millions of dollars into the operation and maintenance of these facilities. We knew that these facilities took work and the dedication of people who are now the pride of their community.

There's a lot of work to be done. That's why I've asked my team to focus in particular on the issues we may be facing right now, so that we're not facing them in the spring of 2021, that we remain absolutely committed to.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much.

You mentioned the remoteness of many of these areas. When it comes to the health status of indigenous people, that also plays a large part, as we know. Significant gaps still persist in the overall health status of indigenous peoples compared with non-indigenous peoples. The first nations and Inuit face specific challenges that have been one of the reasons for these health inequalities, including access to the health services close to where they live.

Can you please explain to us what challenges exist with accessing culturally appropriate care close to their homes and how and where government is investing in partnership with indigenous communities to close this gap in health outcomes?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I will split my time with Valerie Gideon because I think she would have some important elements to add on this.

The budget that this department administers resembles and mirrors that of a province. It administers health care, education, emergency management and infrastructure. The key areas, to your point, are the social determinants of health. They guide everything that underpins the unacceptable socio-economic gap that exists between indigenous and non-indigenous peoples. This is a multi-pronged approach that has to be done in partnership with indigenous communities. When it comes to health care, there are specific needs, as we well know, in indigenous communities. There is, frankly, well-deserved and proven skepticism as to how indigenous communities have been let down.

Working in partnership with indigenous communities to make sure that the health approaches are culturally sensitive is not only important policy, but also affects the scientific outcome of the health benefit and is key in a lot of areas. It's also why the Prime Minister has asked me to put forward distinctions-based health legislation, because we know that the outcomes are better when indigenous peoples have input into their own health. It's almost axiomatic.

The investments that we've made in the last four budgets are enormous, but as you mentioned, there is an enormous gap to close by building hospitals, making sure there are health workers in place, making sure there is access, particularly in remote areas. If there are specific needs in those remote communities, whether you need to fly someone in or out, it is very expensive, but meeting them is key to ensuring that the health outcomes are at par, if not higher than for non-indigenous peoples.

I would just ask Valerie to add a bit of colour on that, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

There are just a few seconds left. Go ahead.

[Valerie Gideon]

There's really not that much more I can say.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

We're over time. Perhaps you could just sum up, quickly.

[Valerie Gideon]

I'll just say that we're hearing from first nations that they want to control the health services that are delivered to their communities and to have greater influence around services when they have to go externally from their communities to access those services.

There is funding, over $70 million since 2018, to support some key projects, including in northern Ontario and northern Manitoba, that are being led by first nations to transform the system.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Ms. Bérubé, you have six minutes. Please go ahead.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning.

Mr. Miller, you said you had increased the number of investigations in indigenous communities. This morning, the Radio-Canada program Espaces autochtones reported that Gilles Bérubé, a Lac-Saint-Jean businessman, got rich on the backs of first nations communities in Quebec. The investigative program Enquête revealed that, for over 20 years, this unscrupulous man used Corporation Waskahegen, which received funding from the governments of Quebec and Canada, to build a real estate empire at the expense of his tenants—indigenous people living off reserve as well as Métis people. It's outrageous, despicable, sickening! I can hardly find the words to describe it I'm so heartbroken for those indigenous and Métis people living off reserve.

Here's a real example of how this scandal is affecting people's lives. Take the case of a woman from Essipit, on the north shore, who lives in a housing unit run by Corporation Waskahegen. The unit is in need of repair; all she was asking was to have her windows replaced so she wouldn't be cold anymore. The company gave her all kinds of ridiculous excuses for why it couldn't do the work. The woman froze all winter long because a crooked businessman preferred to line his pockets with the money of his fellow citizens than to show some humanity. He used our money to do that, and we are responsible, sir.

The government has to answer to that woman and to the rest of Gilles Bérubé's victims. Mr. Miller, what are you going to do so that this woman from Essipit doesn't have to spend another winter freezing in her own home and so that something like this never happens again?