Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 5th, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 10 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs. We recognize that we meet on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, September 24, the committee is continuing its study of indigenous policing and public safety.

I'd like to remind everyone to please be mindful of the interpreters. Make sure, if you don't have your earpiece on your ear, that you put it on the little placemat that has the earpiece symbol. Turn your microphone off. Make sure that the microphones around you aren't on.

Thank you very much to our interpreters. You're fantastic.

Without further ado, I'd like to welcome our first witnesses of our first panel. We have the Honourable Minister of Public Safety. We have, from the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, Talal Dakalbab, senior assistant deputy minister, crime prevention. We have Bryan Larkin, senior deputy commissioner of the RCMP. We also have Adrian Walraven, director general, indigenous affairs, crime prevention.

I'd like to welcome you, Minister. You have five minutes for a presentation, and then we'll have some rounds of questions.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Minister of Public Safety]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, colleagues. It's an honour to be back here. As you know, I've spent many times through many years at this committee. It's always a pleasure to be here with you.

I also want to acknowledge that we are gathered here on the unceded territories of Anishinabe Algonquin people.

Thank you for inviting me to speak about our government’s work to support improved public safety outcomes in first nations and Inuit communities.

Our government remains committed to working in collaboration with all partners and with the provinces, territories, first nations and Inuit to support the unique policing needs of Inuit and first nations communities. We do that through cost-shared funding for the 36 first nations and Inuit police services operating across Canada.

Like all communities in Canada, first nations and Inuit communities should be places where people and families feel safe and secure.

In recent years, we've made significant investments in indigenous policing and community safety, including the first nations and Inuit policing program, FNIPP, and the first nations and Inuit policing facilities program, FNIPFP.

Budget 2024 committed $250 million over five years plus $92.5 million in ongoing funding to the FNIPP and $200 million over five years to the FNIPFP.

These commitments build on budget 2021, which invested $540.3 million over five years and $126.8 million ongoing to the FNIPP and $108.6 million over five years to the FNIPFP. These programs are implemented based on a 52% federal and 48% provincial/territorial cost-sharing ratio.

Our expanded federal support has enhanced policing agreements and provided community safety officers in several jurisdictions. It has also stabilized the funding for existing first nations and Inuit police services.

We work closely with provincial and territorial partners to implement these investments as part of our collective responsibilities for the administration of justice. We also work to sustain ongoing tripartite discussions with provinces, territories, first nations and Inuit partners to assess which kind of policing and safety approaches are meeting local needs.

First nations and Inuit leaders and citizens will always play an important role in finding ways for us to improve safety outcomes in their own communities.

First nations have long called for reform of how their police services are funded. They've also advocated for federal legislation that recognizes first nations policing as an essential service. These calls were amplified by the release of the final report of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, which called for reforms of the delivery of policing services in indigenous communities.

We have undertaken important work with first nations, police services, and provincial and territorial partners on federal legislation that would recognize first nations police services as essential services. That work is now guiding our program reform efforts.

As the committee is aware, in March 2024, the Auditor General released her report on the FNIPP, which recommended reforms to improve program governance and to ensure positive outcomes. I'm happy to tell you that these reforms have been made.

We have recently updated the FNIPP terms and conditions to be more flexible and less burdensome for funding recipients. This represents an important initial step in efforts to modernize the program, most significantly with regard to how we fund first nations and Inuit police services.

We know there is no one-size-fits-all approach to policing.

Policing priorities and approaches change according to local circumstances.

Community-based approaches are a key feature of our reforms and support our shared goal of improving community safety and policing outcomes in first nations and Inuit communities. We will continue to work closely with first nations and Inuit communities, as well as provincial and territorial governments, to advance this important work.

Mr. Chair, let me conclude by thanking the committee for the study that it's undertaking. I look forward to the report that will inform further progress on our part.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

We will go to first round of questions.

MP Zimmer, go ahead for six minutes, please.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

It's good to see you back in committee, Minister.

When testifying last week in this committee, OPP Inspector Marcel Beaudin was asked about using already stretched thin police resources to go after lawful firearms owners. He said that focusing on “nefarious activity” and “organized crime” is a “better bang for our buck.” Inspector Beaudin is a senior leader in indigenous policing for the entire province of Ontario.

Do you think it is better to use already stretched thin police resources to go after criminals or to go after law-abiding first nations and Inuit firearms owners?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON]

It's good to be back here at this committee.

I want to first of all acknowledge the work of the OPP and I want to acknowledge—

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Minister, time is very short. The question is very specific, so if you could answer the question, that would be appreciated.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON]

Sure.

The program that you are referencing contemplates using off-duty police officers and those who are not doing...as part of their regular duties. It is clear there will be additional resources available for them that will help them with the work they are being tasked to do.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Minister, what we heard clearly from many witnesses at committee was that in terms of police resources, it's very difficult to just get the basics covered in a community. When asked to use those already stretched thin resources to go after law-abiding firearms owners.... If there's this great pool of officers and recruits that you're holding in queue, I guess, to go after law-abiding firearms owners' firearms, I think it would be best to let them know because they have some pretty significant issues in community.

Minister, we have heard from many witnesses over the last several weeks in this committee that the RCMP management in Ottawa is having a difficult time doing the basic community policing assignments in first nations and Inuit communities. To me, and I think it was clear even over the last couple of weeks, the RCMP lacks sufficient resources and it's a problem.

When I was in Cambridge Bay a while ago, the first concern brought to me by the Inuit members of the Canadian Rangers was that they were worried their hunting firearms, namely the SKS, would be banned by your Liberal government.

Your fellow Liberal MP, Nathalie Provost, said on September 23 that we have to find a solution to ban the SKS.

Do you agree with your colleague that you want to ban the SKS, yes or no?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON]

With respect to the SKS, as I said before in another committee, we intend to have an expert panel that comprises the RCMP undertake the study on the SKS, so—

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

The question is yes or no. At this time, is it yes or no? Are you going to ban the SKS? Your colleague seems to be very emphatic in wanting that to happen. What's your answer today, Minister? Is it yes or no?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON]

Mr. Zimmer, nothing is conclusive. I can assure you that right now, as part of the assault-style firearms compensation program, 2,500 firearms are the subject of the buyback and subject to the prohibition. That does not include the SKS.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Not as of yet. Okay.

Every first nations police service is tripartite, as you know, meaning that Ottawa pays most of the bill. We have heard from many first nations chiefs and first nations police chiefs that they simply aren't going to participate in your gun confiscation scheme, because it uses needed officers and resources to go after honest, lawful Inuit and first nations people instead of criminals.

If they refuse to participate in the gun confiscation scheme, will you cut their funding?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON]

The assault-style firearms compensation program is a voluntary program on two fronts. First, for those who have prohibited weapons, they have the option of either disabling the unit or turning that in for compensation. Second—

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

How is that voluntary? You're making somebody either turn in or decommission the firearm.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON]

If I may, Mr. Zimmer, let me finish the second part of this.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Go ahead, please.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON]

It's also voluntary on the part of the law enforcement, the police of jurisdiction. Again, if a police service does not or is not able to participate, there are other means by which this program will be implemented. It is not contingent on police services' participation.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Let me ask this, because my time is just about out. You're saying today that if police services choose to not participate in the gun confiscation scheme, they're okay to opt out.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON]

Well, it is an opt-in. It's not an opt-out. We will—

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

But that's what you've said. Opt-in is the same opt-out, Minister, to be frank.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON]

Well, no, we will have a bilateral agreement with the police of jurisdiction if they want to take part in the program. That's the manner in which the program will be delivered.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I'll tell you this: We heard from pretty much every witness, even the AFN chief, that they don't want to use those resources to go after law-abiding firearms owners. Whether it was an Inuit or first nations community, the message was quite clear. On the question of whether they would participate, there was an emphatic “no”, in many cases, even with, as I said, Inspector Beaudin.

Minister, I think you have a challenge on your hands. It's one thing to confiscate the firearms of law-abiding firearms owners, but I don't think you have willing partners in the police forces across this country and first nations communities to help you do it.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

That's the time. Thank you.

Next we have Jaime for six minutes.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso—Antigonish, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing today.

You know, we've heard quite a bit of frustration from first nations leaders around the lack of first nations police in their communities. We heard testimony from such communities as Eskasoni that said that at one point, 30 years ago, close to 90% of their police were actually Mi'kmaq community members. They spoke about how important it was, in de-escalating situations, to have police who the community knows showing up. We heard other testimony from other areas and other jurisdictions about how, when someone comes to check on someone, whether it's for a mental health check or whether they're coming to the door for the first time, it really de-escalates the situation if it's someone who speaks the language or is known in the community.

We heard from the national chief that we need to ensure that we have more first nations RCMP. I'm thinking about, in my lifetime, all the people I've known from Mi'kmaq communities who have tried to get into the RCMP. They were smart enough. They passed all those tests. They were physically fit enough. They passed all those tests. But for some reason, when it came time to do the interviews, they were weeded out. For some reason, they didn't pass.

How we do we ensure that more first nations are making it into the RCMP? How can we ensure that first nations language speakers are prioritized by the RCMP? How can you as minister help us push to ensure that these communities that are talking about these frustrations actually have an ability to see movement from our government?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you, Jaime, for that very important question.

I've spent my entire life talking about and working on the issue of representation, and the work with the RCMP is a continuation of the work that I've been doing.

Currently, 6.5% of the RCMP's personnel—their frontline officers—are indigenous or self-identify as indigenous. I was over at depot several months ago and there was a troop there from Makivvik in northern Quebec, which the RCMP trains. More importantly, there were a number of individuals who were identified as first nations, and it is work that we're continuing.

I fully agree with you that there is a need for representation within the community, like the Eskasoni, for example, where I was able to visit you last year. We will need to strive better to have that representation.

As part of the 1,000 new RCMP officers we will be hiring, one of the deep conversations I've had with both the deputy commissioner and the commissioner is about ensuring that there's representation, especially in northern Canada and especially involving Inuit, because we know that, again, location is important. Rather than bringing people from the south to the north, it's important to have sustainable officers who are on the ground.

With your permission, I will ask the deputy commissioner to speak about the work they've been doing.