Evidence of meeting #44 for Industry and Technology in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was institutions.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Corrigall-Brown  General Counsel, British Columbia Securities Commission
Paterson  Chief Executive Officer, Plurilock Security Inc.
Pinto  Chief Delivery Officer, Payments Canada
Lynam  Director General, Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Quinn  President, Canadian Association of Retired Persons
Smith  Vice-President, Risk and Decision Science, Wealthsimple

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

I call the meeting back to order.

Colleagues, we are going to enter into our third and final hour of today's meeting. We have two new witnesses joining us. We have one in person and one online.

From the Canadian Association of Retired Persons, joining virtually, we have Anthony Quinn, who serves as the president of the organization. Here in the room with us, from Wealthsimple, is Colin Smith, who is the vice-president of risk and decision science.

Gentlemen, you will have up to five minutes for your introductory remarks, followed by questions and answers from the recognized political parties around the table.

Mr. Quinn, I'm going to start with you. You have five minutes, sir.

Anthony Quinn President, Canadian Association of Retired Persons

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you for the invitation to appear today.

My name is Anthony Quinn, and I'm the president of CARP, the Canadian Association of Retired Persons. We represent more than 250,000 members across Canada and advocate on issues affecting older Canadians, including financial security, health care and freedom from age discrimination.

For older Canadians, fraud can be a life-altering event. When a senior loses money to a scam, they are often losing retirement savings accumulated over decades. The unique peril for senior victims is that they may have little or no opportunity to return to the workforce to earn that money back. For the vast majority of older Canadians, the consequences of fraud are permanent.

CARP recently surveyed our members, and over 8,000 replied. More than 82% reported that they had been targeted by a scam and nearly one in five reported having lost money to fraud. All available and reliable sources tell us that only between 5% and 10% of frauds are reported. We therefore believe the true scale of the problem is significantly larger than even our own polling reveals.

For the last decade or more, Canadians have been told to be more careful, and seniors have heeded that message. They have attended seminars, watched public service announcements, read bank brochures and learned to be skeptical of unsolicited texts, calls and emails.

Banks, telecom companies, digital platforms, governments and advocacy organizations like our own have encouraged Canadians to remain vigilant, yet fraud losses continue to rise. At some point, Parliament must ask whether the burden of prevention has been placed too heavily on the victims and too lightly on the institutions through which these scams are delivered.

From the perspective of an older Canadian who has lost a lifetime of savings, educational programs, corporate platitudes, public relations campaigns and reminders to be careful are not enough. Our message to this committee is that fraud prevention must become a system responsibility, not merely an individual responsibility. That means telecoms providers must do more to authenticate calls, prevent spoofing and block fraudulent texts before they reach Canadians. Digital platforms must also take greater responsibility for fraudulent advertisements, impersonation accounts, fake investment promotions and other scams distributed through their systems. Perhaps most importantly, financial institutions must strengthen their fraud detection and intervention before the money leaves the customer's account.

In this case, Parliament should be asking whether the incentives for prevention are properly aligned.

Let me give you just one example of a CARP member. Peter Squire is a 70-year-old retired market analyst from Winnipeg. He is not inexperienced or financially unsophisticated. Mr. Squire received what appeared to be a legitimate call from a senior investment professional. The documents sent to him carried bank branding. The phone number appeared legitimate. The proposal looked legitimate. He sought assistance from established financial institutions and proceeded with what he thought was a secure financial investment. Instead, nearly $650,000 of his retirement savings disappeared in a sophisticated fraud.

What struck me about Peter's story was that he did many of the things we tell Canadians to do—he asked questions, he dealt with recognized institutions and he sought professional assistance—yet he still became a victim. That's why CARP believes fraud prevention cannot rest primarily on individual vigilance. The systems through which these scams are delivered must do more to prevent them from succeeding in the first place.

There's another contrast that many seniors find difficult to understand. When approximately $20 million in gold was stolen from Toronto Pearson airport, there was an immediate, all-hands-on-deck response. Police agencies mobilized. Federal authorities became involved. Insurance companies activated recovery efforts. Security experts were deployed. International investigations were resourced and engaged. Canadian authorities worked with police agencies and partners in the United States, India and other countries. The story dominated national headlines. Resources were marshalled. Accountability was demanded. Recovery became a priority.

However, when a senior loses $650,000 in retirement savings to fraud, the response can feel very different. The victim is often told to call their bank, then the police and then the Canadian anti-fraud centre, and although they are met with sympathy, the typical response is, “I'm sorry, but there's not much we can do to help.”

Seniors in Canada are asking why Canada appears to be capable of mounting coordinated national and international responses when institutional assets are stolen, but when ordinary Canadians lose billions in the aggregate, not much happens. From the victim's perspective, their consequences are far more devastating. When institutions bear the cost of a loss, they tend to act in a more coordinated and more international response. CARP believes the system deserves prevention, accountability and consumer protection built into the infrastructure, rather than relying primarily on individual vigilance.

I would also note that CARP is engaged in a separate but related initiative concerning competition, transparency and the quality of investment advice available to Canadians through branch-based investment channels. Over the past year, we have raised these concerns directly with banks, regulators, the Competition Bureau and officials in the Department of Finance. We have appreciated the constructive dialogue we've had with the Minister of Finance's office. While it is distinct from today's discussion on fraud and scams, the underlying principle is similar. Canadians must have confidence that their financial system is working in their interests, that conflicts are properly managed and that consumers receive fair treatment and meaningful protection.

After a decade of rising fraud, increasing losses and missing opportunities to act, Canadian seniors are asking for protection and accountability. They are asking for financial and communication systems that are working as hard to prevent fraud against consumers as they are to prevent losses in the institutions themselves.

Thank you. I look forward to your questions.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Thank you very much, Mr. Quinn.

Mr. Smith, the floor is yours for up to five minutes.

Colin Smith Vice-President, Risk and Decision Science, Wealthsimple

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the members of the committee for the invitation today.

Wealthsimple is Canada's leading financial innovator. We are trusted by more than four million Canadians and hold over $150 billion in assets. Protecting the trust that Canadians place in us is central to what we do.

What does fraud look like today? We've spent years hardening our systems against direct attack, but fraud has increasingly moved from attacking those systems to attacking the people using them. Clients of all financial institutions find themselves on the front line.

The most damaging attacks are also the hardest to detect, because the fraudster never touches our systems at all. Instead, they get the client to move the money themselves, often while the client believes they're being helped. The tactics are old, but what's new is the speed. With AI, a fraudster can clone a familiar voice or forge a convincing document using tools anyone can download, collapsing what used to take weeks into minutes.

This has changed how we fight fraud. We've come to believe that prevention works best when technology and people work together. Everything we do behind the scenes to detect fraud is paired with real tools that let clients take part.

A pass-key, for example, is a simpler, safer way to sign in to your account using your device's biometrics or PIN. Unlike traditional passwords, pass-keys are uniquely tied to your personal device and to Wealthsimple, meaning that they won't work on fake or fraudulent websites. When we launched pass-keys in the first quarter of this year, our clients immediately moved to protect more than $10 billion dollars behind them.

Another new tool is trusted places. Clients can mark locations like home or work as trusted. Moving money from anywhere else triggers extra verification on terms that they set. More than 500,000 of our clients' transactions have already been verified in this way.

We also protect clients by reaching them in real time. If someone is moving money in our app while on a phone call, we show a warning that the call is not from us. When a client appears to be a victim of a scam, a specially trained team we call our spell breakers group reaches out to talk to them before the money is gone.

Financial institutions and clients can work together to fight fraud, but most fraud originates outside of the financial system. Preventing it must be a shared responsibility across financial institutions, telecom providers and social media platforms, especially as AI accelerates these scams.

Many fraud attempts against our clients begin on social media, where scammers use our name and logo to run fraudulent ads that pull Canadians into scams like pump-and-dump investment schemes. Between October 2025 and January 2026, we reported more than 10,000 such ads on Meta platforms. During this period, it took an average of four days for these ads to be removed after we reported them to Meta.

More recently, we caught and reported as many as 1,500 fraudulent ads in a single day. We do what we can to protect our clients from these scams. We built an AI-powered system to identify potential pump-and-dump stocks in real time and automatically warn clients who might who might be about to buy in.

Reporting ads one by one is a losing game. We have yet to see a platform-level or policy solution from Meta to address this issue. The lasting solution is to require social media companies to verify that every advertiser of financial services is a legitimate, regulated entity, as the U.S., U.K., Australia, Hong Kong and six other countries already do today. That is the central recommendation in our submission to the government's national anti-fraud strategy.

We welcome the government's and this committee's focus on protecting Canadians. Fraud is not going to slow down.

What gives me confidence is that our clients have shown that they want to be active partners in their own protection, and that partnership is how we will keep Canadians safe.

Thank you. I look forward to your questions.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Thank you very much, Mr. Smith.

I'm going to take the rare opportunity off the top to ask a question, because you piqued my interest on something that came up earlier this week in testimony.

How many days did you say it took Meta to take down a fraudulent ad that you had flagged for them?

1:20 p.m.

Vice-President, Risk and Decision Science, Wealthsimple

Colin Smith

During that period, it was an average of four days.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Did Meta acknowledge that it was a fraud at the outset, or was their rationale that they were uncertain as to whether or not it was fraudulent?

1:20 p.m.

Vice-President, Risk and Decision Science, Wealthsimple

Colin Smith

We would submit them for review, and that review process—which they do internally to determine whether or not the ads are scams—took that amount of time to complete.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Okay.

I'm sure other members will follow up on this. If they don't, I may return with some questions at the very end.

With that, Ms. Borrelli, the floor is yours for six minutes.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Kathy Borrelli Conservative Windsor—Tecumseh—Lakeshore, ON

Welcome to our witnesses. Thank you for being here for this important study.

My first question is for Mr. Quinn.

Many seniors are targeted through fake tech support scams or bank impersonation scams, where the victim is convinced to install remote access software. Once that happens, the scammer may be able to guide them to divest all of their life savings.

Should banks or payment platforms be required to add extra verification or temporary holds when high-risk payments are attempted from a device showing symptoms of remote access?

1:20 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Retired Persons

Anthony Quinn

Thank you for the question.

I do believe that the banks must take a higher level of responsibility for those losses. There are no scams taking place, typically, that are taking cash out of the hand of an individual. The scammers are required to use the systems, electronically, that are owned and operated by the banks. The money is typically transferred from one institution to another using their systems. Our members believe that a greater responsibility must be placed on the institutions themselves. Without that, education alone—despite the efforts across the board—will not be enough to prevent the frauds and scams from taking place, and there's no opportunity to recoup.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Kathy Borrelli Conservative Windsor—Tecumseh—Lakeshore, ON

Thanks, Mr. Quinn.

One challenge is that seniors need protection from fraud, but they should not be treated as incapable of managing their own money. Any solution has to protect independence while stopping high-risk manipulation.

What kinds of safeguards would your members accept? Examples are trusted contact, optional transaction limits, delays for unusual transfers or things of the like.

1:25 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Retired Persons

Anthony Quinn

We're always concerned about a paternalistic attitude toward older adults and the sense of taking away their ability to control their own financial decisions. We have to balance that with the pressure that fraudsters use to encourage the victims to act hastily on a limited-time offer or when presented with the case of an emergency situation, like the grandparent scam where the grandchild has some kind of criminal or health-related concern.

I believe our members would rightly give up a little bit of that control for some delay in the transfer if that meant they were being protected by the banks and were able to ensure that the transfer was legitimate.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

Kathy Borrelli Conservative Windsor—Tecumseh—Lakeshore, ON

Do you think there should be one clear front door for senior fraud victims with banks, platforms, telecoms and police—like a hub they can go to once they've been divested of funds?

1:25 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Retired Persons

Anthony Quinn

We heard from the Canadian anti-fraud centre. When we speak to the Canadian anti-fraud centre, they say they're not able to answer the majority of the phone calls coming in. They're directing those who have been scammed to fill out online forms. They've been scammed online. They try to get some kind of attention from the RCMP and other police forces, and they're told to file a form online. We need some type of immediate action from the banks, if they're able to recover.

Ensuring that the banks are trying to prevent the fraud at the front end is far more important than having a place for seniors to report after they've had their money stolen. The case right now is that it's too late and everyone expresses regret at the loss. There's a sense that the system isn't really there to protect them.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

Kathy Borrelli Conservative Windsor—Tecumseh—Lakeshore, ON

In our previous hour, we spoke with Chris Lynam of the Canadian anti-fraud centre. He advised of a program they have where seniors are helping seniors. Do you know of that program? Have you seen it work successfully at all?

1:25 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Retired Persons

Anthony Quinn

That is just one of likely thousands of fraud prevention programs going on across the country. The point that we're trying to make today is that education is only a small part of the problem. It has proven not to be effective. Even those who have heard the messaging are still falling for the frauds. We need the institutions to play a greater role in protecting seniors from these frauds.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

Kathy Borrelli Conservative Windsor—Tecumseh—Lakeshore, ON

I get a lot of inquiries. I get a lot of emails and calls from seniors who have fallen victim to some of these fraudsters. Where's the best place to send them? How can I help them?

1:25 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Retired Persons

Anthony Quinn

I wish I knew, Madam.

We're asking Parliament to take a lead on this—to encourage and perhaps require institutions to play a greater role, to invest in enforcement and to increase the penalties and punishments in our country so that fraudsters will be less inclined to participate.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

Kathy Borrelli Conservative Windsor—Tecumseh—Lakeshore, ON

What is your biggest ask? What do you want the most from government?

1:25 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Retired Persons

Anthony Quinn

My biggest ask is that the institutions, particularly banks and telecoms, be held to a higher degree of accountability in this and that they be part of the solution to preventing the frauds. I believe that if they were on the hook for some of these losses, they would be more likely to take action.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

Kathy Borrelli Conservative Windsor—Tecumseh—Lakeshore, ON

Thank you, Mr. Quinn.

1:25 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Retired Persons

Anthony Quinn

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Thank you very much, Ms. Borrelli.

I believe we're going to have Mr. Fanjoy splitting some time with Mr. Bains. I'll let the two of you sort that out.

For now, the floor is yours for six minutes, Mr. Fanjoy

Bruce Fanjoy Liberal Carleton, ON

Thank you, Chair.

I'm really pleased to see the Canadian Association of Retired Persons present. I'm sure everyone around this table has members of their own family who are getting older and more vulnerable to sophisticated financial crimes. We all share a desire to protect them while respecting their independence and agency.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on how to strike that balance of making sure we don't take away their independence while actively protecting them, but recognizing that some of our seniors are dealing with undiagnosed dementia, which would make them especially vulnerable.