Evidence of meeting #22 for Justice and Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funding.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:15 p.m.
Bloc
Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
I also see: "Contributions to the provinces under the Aboriginal Courtwork Program".
Is that also a different program? Is that a program for those who support Aboriginal clients in the courts? Is that legal aid?
5:15 p.m.
Acting Director General, Department of Justice
No, it doesn't mean legal aid. It means a court worker who is going to assist an aboriginal person through the court system and work closely with the—
5:20 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I wanted to follow up on a different tack.
When I was still practising, it seemed to me there were more and more suggestions, or actual attempts by lawyers, to get cases covered, both in the criminal and immigration law areas, where the courts would be asked to appoint counsel directly, and the department, whether provincial or federal, would be required to pay directly, as opposed to going through the legal aid system.
Regarding the item that Mr. Lemay just drew to your attention, is that where those costs come from?
5:20 p.m.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Justice
At the federal level, yes. That's what the unique legal cases idea is.
5:20 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Usually it's a situation where both the judge and the counsel are frustrated by the legal aid system in that it's not working, in the sense that it's not available, or people aren't eligible, or they can't get a certificate, or whatever.
May I ask, do you know if that amount has been growing over the years, where there are direct orders for the government to pay? If so, what percentage of growth are we seeing?
5:20 p.m.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Justice
I don't know the percentage, but it has been growing over the last few years.
In fact that is an item that's being studied by the justice steering committee, which I mentioned earlier, that's composed of judges, and defence, bar, federal, and provincial officials. They're looking at the whole issue of the unrepresented accused, because it is becoming a matter of concern.
Barbara, do you have any figures as to how much it has gone up?
5:20 p.m.
Acting Director General, Department of Justice
We track it in different ways. We did a court site study that's on our--
5:20 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
May I ask, are you tracking at both the provincial and federal levels, or just at the federal?
5:20 p.m.
Acting Director General, Department of Justice
We are actually trying to track at the provincial level. We know our own statistics, the ones that we have been.... I should step back for a moment.
With federal court-ordered counsel—these are often drug cases with federal prosecutors—we have an understanding, through our contribution agreements with the provinces and territories, that if we have one of these cases and would like to use the legal aid rates, we can approach the legal aid plan to see if it can provide a lawyer at a reasonable rate.
In any case, we have been trying to track federal and provincial court-ordered counsel, and we're in the process of analyzing these results. But we can see that the numbers are going up.
5:20 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Can I just ask, Mr. Chair, that if there is some kind of report on that research, it be shared with the committee?
5:20 p.m.
Acting Director General, Department of Justice
We have a draft report. We do have a chart. It's not a perfect chart, but it does give you a flavour of the increase over the last number of years.
5:20 p.m.
Acting Director General, Department of Justice
Probably in the near future. If you would like a report--
5:20 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Could we have both the chart and the report sent to the clerk, Mr. Chair?
Thank you.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
Is that feasible, Madam Merriam, to have the chart and the report?
5:20 p.m.
Acting Director General, Department of Justice
Yes. Since I mentioned that we were doing it with the FPT permanent working group on legal aid, we're collecting our numbers together; we're trying to make sure we're all collecting them in the same way. The report would have to be agreed to by them. We'd have to finalize it before we could release it.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
I would like to ask you a general question. Please feel absolutely comfortable to tell us whether or not you can answer.
We are currently considering Bills C-9 and C-10. You will have noted that the questions we are asking you are about costs, etc.
You are senior officials but I do not know all of you. I am new, but I've been on the other side in the past, that is to say, I have had the opportunity to observe the people who sit here.
Do you really think that the Bills C-9 and C-10 can be passed by April 2007 when the Liberal Party has the majority in the Senate? We already have Bill C-2, which has not come back. Is it logical to think—please feel comfortable in answering this—that Bills C-9 and C-10 will get back to us by April?
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
Order, please. Obviously there's going to be no reply.
Mr. Lee has a question.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON
The chair has me firmly focused now on the drug courts envelope.
I had an opportunity with other Parliamentarians three or four years ago to get a look at the Toronto drug court up close and personal. It seemed like it was efficacious, but I was just curious about whether there has been any departmental study of the spending effectiveness for that. You have to invest in a new court, new procedures, but you get savings from diversion from other courts. You get improved outcomes, I understand, on the part of the persons attending regularly before the court. They're retained in the court system much longer, so there's a higher retention cost, but they're not incarcerated, so there are savings there.
Is there any document out there that attempts to reconcile the costs and benefits, even on an interim basis?
5:25 p.m.
Acting Director General, Department of Justice
I was asked earlier if we could provide the executive summaries of the two reports that are already available--one on the Toronto court and one on the Vancouver court. Costing was an aspect of both of those evaluations, but costing is very complex, very difficult, and I don't think either one was able to resolve it. So this is another thing we will be studying with all six courts over the next couple of years.