Justice Committee on May 25th, 2010

[Kelly Lamrock]

Yes, I know.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

In that case, can you tell me whether these crimes are included in the statistics that you quoted to us in your testimony? Did you take them into account when you said that youth crime rate had decreased? If crimes of this nature, that is crimes that are drug and motor vehicle related, were excluded, how can you say for a fact that the crime rate is lower?

[Kelly Lamrock]

In all of the categories for which statistics are compiled in New Brunswick, the rate is lower. I realize that for other categories, we can't be quite as certain. There are certainly many things going on in the world that we are not aware of, but if we ask to see a study that clearly proves incarcerating young persons lowers the crime rate, no one can provide us with one.

All we know is that our approach results in a lower youth crime rate. We can't know everything, and neither can you. If there is nothing to prove that incarceration works, then I submit that the burden of proof rests with the parties who support that approach. Show us a study that proves it works better than our approach. Otherwise, sir, leave us to go about the business of protecting the people of New Brunswick.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Sir, you talked about rehabilitation. I think everyone can agree that it is productive to rehabilitate someone who has committed a crime. However, you didn't mention—or at least I didn't hear you mention—the victims.

What type of victim support programs do you have in place? Protecting the public also means protecting the victims. What kind of programs do you have, aside from incarceration of the offender in a provincial facility or in a penitentiary for two years plus a day? Does New Brunswick have special support programs for victims?

[Kelly Lamrock]

It does, Mr. Petit. I'm not here to talk about my personal life, but those who do know me know that I am acquainted with many family members who have been affected by crime. We do indeed have programs to help people get some quality of life back after falling victim to crime.

Like a father that loves his children dearly, the best possible help that we can give crime victims is to take steps to prevent more crime. That's why we are aiming to reduce the number of victims and to ensure that we have measures in place to deal with youth at risk, such as having an emergency centre and giving the police more power and more funding to seize items used in the commission of a crime. The best thing we can do for crime victims is to take steps to prevent another person from being victimized.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Sir, were you aware the number of victims reported by the RCMP, which maintains a victims register, is higher than the number of crimes reported by police in New Brunswick? There are more victims than crime reported by the RCMP. The RCMP is active in law enforcement in your province. However, the number of reported victims is two-thirds higher than the number of reported crimes.

How can you quote statistics to the committee today if there are more victims than crimes committed? I need your help with this. We're examining a bill and you're here to provide testimony.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Please give a short answer.

[Kelly Lamrock]

This touches somewhat on the point that I raised. I talked about prevention resources. When I say prevention, I am talking not only about social services, but also about the number of police officers, programs aimed at getting vehicles out of the hands of criminals or programs for owners penalized by the fact that their homes are located in neighbourhoods with high crime levels.

These are things we should avoid. I am absolutely certain that, at the provincial level, we are faced with challenges. We must make sure to respond to each crime-related complaint. If there is no evidence, and we use funds to incarcerate criminals, there will be no funds left for police officers, neighbourhood programs and prevention programs, or for police officers who could respond to victims' complaints. This is what's important. Funds should not be wasted if there is no evidence. In fact, we need more police officers and more means to prevent people from becoming victims of crime.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you, Minister, and also Mr. Burns. We're at the end of our time. Thank you for appearing.

[Kelly Lamrock]

Thanks to all of you. It was a good day.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We'll give you a couple of minutes to leave, and then we'll have Mr. and Mrs. Lacasse take their places.

We'll suspend for a few minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

The meeting is reconvened for our last half hour. We have with us Line and Luc Lacasse.

Welcome to our committee. As you know, the bill is named after your son, and we're looking forward to hearing from you. You have 10 minutes to present, and then we'll open the floor to questions from our members.

Ms. Lacasse, would you like to start?

[Line Lacasse, As an Individual]

Thank you very much.

Good afternoon everyone.

My name is Line Lacasse, and I am accompanied by my husband, Luc Lacasse. We are the parents of Sébastien Lacasse, who was murdered on August 8, 2004, by a group of young offenders in Laval. He was only 19 years old.

Our son was taken from us in a very violent way by a dozen youths without scruples and without respect for life. He was severely beaten, hounded, covered with Cayenne pepper, trampled, without even being given a chance—despite begging his assailants to stop—and finally, stabbed to death.

None of the 10 young people even thought about calling for help. All of them, without exception, left the premises without any empathy for the young man lying in a pool of his own blood and dying.

Life will never be the same for us. Not only we, his immediate family, are affected by his death. His grand-parents, uncles, aunts, cousins, friends and neighbours are affected, as well. Their lives have also been turned upside down. Sébastien was a live wire, always ready to help, likeable, and loved by everyone.

When the doctor told me on August 7 that there was nothing more she could do for Sébastien, it felt like one of my limbs had been severed. I curled up into a fetal position and ended up in another world.

His father, Luc, his sister, Julie, and I came out to the parking lot to wait for our youngest son, Maxime. I will never forget the look on his face when he saw us from afar, after understanding and screaming “no” with painful intensity. As we hugged each other without talking, we knew that the long road ahead of us would be filled with pain, sadness, anger and a lack of understanding, and that there was no avoiding this journey before we could find inner peace.

Feelings we had never felt before surfaced: anger, rage, injustice, grief, vengefulness and fear.

Carrying Sébastien's ashes to their final resting place was unbearably painful. “My little monkey,” as I liked to call him, my first born, was no longer among the living. Reality caught up with us soon enough. Now, we had to learn to live with his absence and his death on a daily basis. The loss of a child cannot be accepted, especially if it comes about so violently. Parents should go before their children and not the other way around.

Adding to our drama, a few days later, certain inconceivable events took place. My two children, Maxime and Julie, received threats of all kinds. In addition, coloured paint balls were fired at our house from a shotgun. The windows of our car were broken, and we received intimidating threats during the trial. In addition, a discriminatory song against our family was composed by friends of the accused. The lyrics scoffed at and disrespected Sébastien's death. The song was made available on the Internet.

What is the value of a life today? All of us around this table can ask ourselves that question.

In addition, my son Maxime lived through two violent and dangerous incidents that put his life in jeopardy. One of them took place in 2007, in a parking lot close to our home. Rubens Alexandre, one of Sébastien's murderers, threatened to beat Maxime. Max's friend, who was a Canadian boxing champion, got involved and told the assailant to leave, since he was not allowed to approach Maxime. The attacker left and came back to the parking lot 10 minutes later in his car. He fired a couple of shots from a shotgun in Maxime's direction. Fortunately, he missed his target.

This same Rubens Alexandre was involved in an incident similar to the one with Sébastien when he stabbed a young man from Brossard while exiting a bar. Fortunately, this victim survived. Rubens Alexandre was accompanied by Maxime Renaud, who was also accused of Sébastien's murder.

Since Sébastien's death, Rubens Alexandre has been arrested several times. Maxime Renaud was arrested for counterfeiting bank cards. Three weeks ago, Rubens Alexandre escaped from the Saint-Jérôme detention centre.

Since these events, the state of our mental and physical health has deteriorated. General symptoms include high blood pressure, anxiety, fatigue, and an impression that we are waging a losing battle. We wonder when it will all end.

You cannot imagine what it feels like to think that another child could have died. Our family is grieving, we are afraid for Maxime, who does not tell us what is going on so as not to worry us, but is experiencing extreme inner anxiety. I became very listless and, for a while, I was unable to support and help my family members.

To add insult to injury, the court proceedings are a real circus. We have spent three years of our lives following this trial, which seems to be never-ending and is very emotionally draining. We have to keep reliving this horrifying night, at each stage of the proceedings, for the various accused in the case of our son's murder. It was very important for us to follow all the stages of the trial in order to try to understand the incomprehensible. We were the body and the voice of Sébastien, who was no longer there to recount the horrors he lived through. Not even animals are able to inflict the kind of violence our son was subjected to. It was important to ensure that the murderers would get a sentence in line with their crime and the seriousness of the inhumane acts they committed on the evening of August 7, 2007. That is to say, they should serve a sentence that is proportional to the seriousness of their crime.

It goes without saying that our mental and physical health has suffered greatly in the process. Maxime left school because he couldn't concentrate and felt too much sorrow. Julie dropped a few courses temporarily for the same reasons.

The assistance afforded to the murderers is unbelievable. They are provided with medical and psychological assistance and are allowed to continue their studies under supervision. All that is paid by our governments. However, the assistance provided to the families of victims is nothing short of pitiful. There is little, if any, support from these same governments. A $600 payment from the government is not going to help us face the financial problems caused by a situation like ours. We rather feel that there is a lack of respect toward us and that we are not important to our elected representatives. Finally, the amount is ridiculous and is an insult to a family in distress. We are left to our own devices in dealing with our grief and all the resulting problems and worries.

As for financial issues, we now have less income. I was unable to work owing to health problems. Luc worked less in order to be able to follow the legal proceedings. The lack of money ended up creating additional worries that we really could have done without at the time. Fortunately for us, there is the Association of Families of Persons Assassinated or Disappeared, AFPAD. They helped us out and were there for us during the court proceedings. We are also lucky to have a friend who is a lawyer, and who supported us throughout the proceedings. Of course, we also have our family.

Sébastien's Law, in memory of our son and in honour of our determination, makes our hearts sing a little. It is gratifying and reassuring to see that a government body is looking into this problem. For us, the most important thing is that people have taken the time to listen to our whole story for hours on end, the story that I have summarized here today. I assure you that this is not even a quarter of what we have really lived through.

I know that other governments are focusing a lot on the statistics, but tell yourselves that one life lost is already one too many. I do not wish it upon anyone here to go through such a tragedy. I challenge any mom or dad who has lived through such an ordeal to oppose this bill. I assure you that if it were your son or daughter who was beaten to death and murdered in such a violent way, you would not hesitate to vote in favour of this bill, which, among other things, will make it possible to punish the murderers, and to do so in proportion to the violent nature of the acts they committed.

I received a wonderful education. My parents always told me that in life, we always suffer the consequences of our actions. The system currently in place sends young people the message that there are no serious consequences for murdering or badly injuring someone. Violence is being trivialized, somewhat like it is in video games.

In my view, it is critically important to strengthen the provisions of the Youth Criminal Justice Act, so that it would, among other things, make it possible to remand youths in custody while they await their court proceedings. If this Act had been in effect, we wouldn't have had to go through the horrors of waiting in a hallway with the accused.

Take a moment to imagine yourselves outside the courtroom, waiting in the same line as the people accused of murdering your son. In addition, the accused can enter the room without being searched, while the victim's family and those accompanying them have to undergo a thorough search. To me, that is truly unbelievable. It should be noted that this Act pertains to very serious crimes.

I would like to go back to my son Sébastien, who died following an extremely violent attack. His murderer, Maxime Labonté, who was 17 years and eight months old at that time and who stabbed my son several times, received a life sentence for unpremeditated murder and will be eligible for parole in August 2011. It goes without saying that we will have to challenge the parole application, which is highly probable in his case. So, we will have to face him again and we will have to convince the decision-makers to not release this criminal.

In conclusion, I hope you realize that a family is condemned for life when they lose a loved one in such a cruel and horrible way. Therefore, if we have an opportunity to improve our justice system, let us respect life and protect everyone's safety by voting for this bill to come into force as soon as possible. Clearly, this will not bring my son back, but at least his death and his tragedy will serve some purpose in our society.

Thank you for listening to me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you very much.

First of all, I want to thank you for sharing this with us. I don't think anyone at this committee can understand how difficult it must be for you to relive that nightmare that you've gone through. Thank you for that. I want to assure you that you are important to our government and we want to listen very carefully to what you have to say to us.

We have time for maybe three questions, and I'm going to limit the questions to four minutes apiece.

None? Okay.

Monsieur Ménard, you can have five minutes, since the Liberal side isn't going to ask any questions.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Mrs. Lacasse, the first thing I would like you to understand is that I feel great sympathy for you, just like everyone else here.

I myself am a father and, as of recently, a grandfather as well. I know that it is terrible that your son was taken away from you. When our children start having their own children, raising them well and looking to provide them with the happiness their parents gave them, we get to experience the joys of life even long after we ourselves have fulfilled our parental duties. That opportunity was taken away from you.

That being said, I do not know who explained the Act to you, but I would like to know if you are aware of the fact that the Act would not have changed anything in the treatment of the young man who stabbed your son.

[Line Lacasse]

Perhaps it wouldn't have changed anything in his case. However, I feel that it is the future that matters right now. Nothing can bring Sébastien back. For me, the future is what is important. I find that we are not strict enough towards young people nowadays. Yes, I am aware that it would not have changed much in our case, but that does not take away... I have seen the Act, I have studied it, and in my opinion, it is important to strengthen its provisions.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

But you do realize that there will probably always be young offenders. We should, for instance, develop better methods to ensure that their numbers decrease.

[Line Lacasse]

Yes.

[Luc Lacasse, As an Individual]

I think that right now, that is not the case. Out of the 10 who were arrested, there are at least two...

[Line Lacasse]

Who have re-offended.

[Luc Lacasse]

...who have re-offended. They went to prison, they attended programs, and nothing changed.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Perhaps I am not well informed, but I know... I have it here in the articles of La Mémoire du Québec, which indexes all the newspapers...

[Line Lacasse]

Yes.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Only one of the attackers was a minor, and he is the one who stabbed your son.

[Luc Lacasse]

Excuse me—