Justice Committee on June 1st, 2010

[Yves Laperrière]

It is a normal component of adolescence to want to set their own limits, to challenge authority, and so on. All young people go through it: pushing the boundaries, establishing their territory, feeling that they are in full possession of their faculties, wanting to make their own decisions. That is fundamental to human behaviour.

In terms of the level of moral judgment, we have specialized clinics, for example in-patient clinics, that regularly use tools to assess young people's level of moral judgment, their level of interpersonal maturity. We see that it is often below the young people's chronological age. In reality, a 17-year-old or 18-year-old sometimes has the reasoning ability of a child of 10 or 12. The young person's age and appearance does not reflect what they are, or their psychological competencies or reasoning ability.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

And Les Centres jeunesse relies on that to be true, in your policy? It's just yes or no.

[Yves Laperrière]

Yes.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move on to Monsieur Petit for seven minutes.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

I will go very quickly because you know time is very limited.

Mr. Laperrière, you quoted or seemed to be using statistics possibly from Statistics Canada and Juristat, concerning young people. Is that where your statistics come from?

[Yves Laperrière]

It depends on which ones you're referring to. When I was talking about crime in the Outaouais, those were internal statistics from the Centres jeunesse de l'Outaouais.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Do you know, Mr. Laperrière, that all drug-related crimes are not covered, absolutely not covered, in what are called the uniform crime reports, which are used as the basis for the statistics, including yours? Are you aware of that?

[Yves Laperrière]

I have heard that. Except that the comparison is the same, in that case, all things being equal.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I'm asking you to answer yes or now. Are you aware of that?

[Yves Laperrière]

Not 100%.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

And do you know that all highway traffic accidents—you do know that young people sometimes use vehicles—to which the Criminal Code applies are not in the uniform crime reports? Are you aware of that as well?

[Yves Laperrière]

Once again, I have heard that, but not for certain.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

You said earlier that homicides are lower among young people than among adults. Did you also know, Mr. Laperrière, that in the case of homicides, in the uniform crime reports, a homicide is only recorded when the body is found, which is to be expected, while all disappearances of children and adults are not classified as homicides, they are classified as missing persons? For example, in the case of Cédrika Provencher, four years ago, she has never been found. Ms. Surprenant, 10 years ago, she was a young teenager, her case is not classified as a homicide, it is classified as a missing person.

Do you have other figures that show that in fact all the missing persons cases in the Outaouais region are not homicides? Do you have other information concerning...

[Yves Laperrière]

That is not what I was referring to. I did not say that the prevalence was lower among young people; what I said was that the prevalence among young people was the exception.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Laperrière, you talked about rehabilitation. Before coming here, I checked what there is in Quebec, the province I come from. We also communicated to find out exactly what the government of Quebec says about rehabilitation. We did research about Canada and Quebec. This what they say:

[Translation] In the case of Quebec, it would appear that there are no standards for measuring the success of a rehabilitation program. In addition, most of the research that has been done seems to suffer from a lack of consistent methodology, data discrepancies or different methodologies being used to measure the results. Often, recidivism, when an offender commits another offence, is regarded as the benchmark for calculating the success or failure of a rehabilitation program. Other studies have examined other factors, such as the victim's level of satisfaction.

Do you have some kind of program at the Centres jeunesse de l'Outaouais that would show us how your rehabilitation works?

[Yves Laperrière]

Well in terms of financial resources, we are not a university research youth centre, like the ones in Montreal and Quebec City and other places. We don't have the financial resources.

Our academic ties are with the UQO, including with Jacques Dionne, whom you will hear later, who has worked very closely with the use of the cognitive-developmental and behavioural approach in our units.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

The question is: do you have one?

[Yves Laperrière]

We have no research program. However, we assess success by the application and completion of an individual intervention plan for each of our young people.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

A little earlier in your testimony, and not just yours, all of it, I heard a lot about rehabilitation. When we talk about rehabilitation, we are talking about someone who has gone through the system. That is what we call a person who may be a criminal, depending on the situation.

Do you have a clearly defined program for victims in your Centres jeunesse de l'Outaouais? I haven't heard a lot about that. How many victims have told you they did not support this bill?

[Yves Laperrière]

We work closely with the Centre d'aide aux victimes d'actes criminels; for one thing, I am a member of the centre's board of directors. Our alternative justice organization consults victims in all situations involving diversion measures and we ourselves consult in all pre-decision reports we are asked to prepare.

We pay special attention to giving victims a role, not only in terms of diversion measures, but also for sentencing. We make a concerted effort...

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

You understand that my time is limited.

Mr. Laperrière, there are four organizations that work with victims, and I am going to name them for you.

The first has testified before the committee, the Association québécoise Plaidoyer-Victimes. The second is the Centre d'aide et de lutte contre les agressions à caractère sexuel, CALACS, which we have where I come from. The third is the Centre d'aide aux victimes d'actes criminels, CAVAC. The last one is an association one of our senators is involved with, the Murdered or Missing Persons' Families' Association.

Do you know there are no others in Quebec, apart from those?

[Yves Laperrière]

I named CAVAC and pointed out that it was one of our partners.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I want to know whether there are other organizations, apart from them.

[Yves Laperrière]

As I told you, in the diversion program, Alternative Outaouais is our main collaborator. It is an alternative justice organization that works, in applying that program, very closely with the victims, for example on criminal mediation, conciliation and reparations. The organization is not involved in advocating for or protecting victims' rights. Rather, its role is to build bridges through the reparations that may be offered to victims.