Evidence of meeting #48 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was research.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Senior Research Scientist, Corrections and Criminal Justice, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Sure. That research summary has been translated, it is on the web, and it is referenced at the end of this report.
Liberal
Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
All right. Well, thank you for that. It's very interesting to me.
You mentioned the principles RNR.
Mr. McIsaac, are you familiar with the three principles—risk, need, and responsivity—in the John Howard world? Are those recognized principles?
Liberal
Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
Okay. And if this answer could be short as well, because I really want to get over to the churches, is RNR—if that's the shorthand for it—being adequately funded and used in our corrections facilities in Canada? Does it work?
Liberal
Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
Do you agree, in other words, with your neighbour Mr. Hanson that it works
Interim Director, Policy, John Howard Society of Canada
Given the level of funding, it is not working. If that funding were increased, intuitively I expect it would work, but I suggest there would need to be a review.
Liberal
Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
Not to attack you, Mr. McIsaac, but you said we don't know that mandatory minimum sentences work, and I'm guessing you don't have any evidence they don't work.
Can I suggest that drug treatment court, which we've reviewed in other legislation, is a form of a mandatory supervision or sentence that does work, and that you agree with it?
Interim Director, Policy, John Howard Society of Canada
I would say there is a difference there.
First, there is a great deal of evidence to indicate that mandatory minimums do not reduce the level of crime within communities and that they are not seen as a deterrent to the individual offender.
Liberal
Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
Well, with respect to the offences we're dealing with, do you have any studies or evidence on these?
The problem for all of us here is that we already have mandatory minimum sentences and now we're moving the bar. That's the problem.
Some of these statistics seem to indicate that with the right treatment, recidivism, and therefore the problem to the community, is less than we thought. That's with mandatory minimums already in place. They've existed for some time.
I think it's hard for all of us to say, as lawmakers, that they don't work at all, because I assume from most of the arguments here—citing the statistics fellow—that it's not bad. I mean, it's not great; there are problems out there, but it's working as it is. We don't need to increase it.
Isn't that an argument that they are working partly because there are mandatory minimums?
Did you want to respond to that?
Community Chair of Justice, Church Council on Justice and Corrections
Yes. I believe the research shows that treatment is more effective than prison alone. But treatment and community are more effective than treatment and prison.
I think there's a strong body of knowledge around that. I could get you the references if you want; I think they're pretty conclusive. It's certainly worth pursuing and paying attention to that kind of evidence.
Liberal
Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
I know that notice is an issue, but we very much appreciate your being here. If there is information you want to forward to the clerk for dissemination to us—it will be translated, etc.—that would be very appreciated.
I want to ask a couple of questions to the CCJC.
I've been on this committee for almost five years. I've missed the odd meeting to be home or somewhere else, but have you appeared before us on the justice agenda of this government before? How many times?
Community Chair of Justice, Church Council on Justice and Corrections
Yes, many times.
Community Chair of Justice, Church Council on Justice and Corrections
I'm sorry...?
Liberal
Community Chair of Justice, Church Council on Justice and Corrections
Yes, we have. I think the last time was in 2007.
Community Chair of Justice, Church Council on Justice and Corrections
Community Chair of Justice, Church Council on Justice and Corrections
Our analysis and our conclusion is nothing new; it's something we've been working on for 39 years. We've made the statements many times over the years, with the last time being 2007.
Liberal
Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
Sorry, refresh my memory. How is it that you speak for the churches? There are 11 faith-based groups. What's the connection?
I'll give you an analogy, and it may be alpha-omega to go from church groups to lawyers, but....
Community Chair of Justice, Church Council on Justice and Corrections
That one.
Liberal
Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
The Canadian Bar Association comes forward. They have a system where the criminal law section selects someone, usually a criminal defence lawyer, and he or she comes and speaks for the Canadian Bar Association, of which most of us are members. Generally, their comments are not in favour of most of the legislation. But that's because they're criminal defence lawyers. Now, you can't say that they speak for Mr. Dechert, who is a corporate lawyer. I mean, they don't speak for him in his practice or me in my civil litigation practice.
Is it similar to that, or do you have marching orders from, for instance, the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, etc.? How do you form an opinion?