Justice Committee on March 29th, 2010

[Prof. Harpreet Aulakh]

Yes, I hear a lot of stuff. During my research, I did hear from lots of young people.

I myself am an immigrant, a first-generation immigrant and international student, and am a parent of kids who go to school. Yes, I do experience many things that other speakers have shared with us.

One of the things is characterization or labelling, where we want to put that label on Somalians. That is a problem. So gangs of Indo-Canadians, of Chinese, are a problem; my question is, well, they are second-generation immigrants. Why? Aren't they Canadian citizens?

So that's the problem. Many kids, many second-generation kids like my kids, who were born over here, are being told, “Okay, you're from India, that's fine.” But when will they start to be called Canadian?

I mentioned the gangs that are a huge problem for law enforcement in Calgary, Fresh Off the Boat Killers and Fresh Off the Boat. They are called FOBs. But the media also calls them “Forever Our Brother”. That's not the name that's ever given out or publicized.

What that tells me, and what I grasp from that, is that, well, they were the group that was discriminated against in high school--yes, “fresh off the boat”, push them away. So they are them. But they got together as Forever Our Brother. They grouped together and they stood together. Whatever happened--bad drug dealings that disintegrated--one became an enemy of the other, and they became Fresh Off the Boat Killers. So that's there.

But yes, the label has to be.... They are all born in Canada. Why are they not Canadian citizens?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for being here.

Mr. Accord, I have just a couple of quick questions. I'm been following the situation here as much as I can. I don't have a grasp of whether there's a separate street gang that's been identified as a Somalian street gang in Edmonton, in particular, and maybe Calgary. Are the police identifying that there are separate street gangs, or a separate street gang, exclusively Somalian?

[Mahamad Accord]

What we have learned is there is no Somali gang yet, as such, or we haven't identified one. But they join and are recruited by the other gangs.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Can I ask about the recruitment? Is it your sense, or your experience from working with them, that the recruitment is coming from other people of Somalian heritage? Or are they being recruited just across the board, no matter what the gang composition is?

[Mahamad Accord]

What we are finding is that Canadians of Somali heritage, young men who are already in the gangs, are recruiting the new members to the gangs. But the majority of our members are new to the business. So they become usually the low-level members, especially vulnerable, and when it comes to who has to lose, they are the first to be expended.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

They're the first victims.

[Mahamad Accord]

Yes, the first victims. That's the challenge for us.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Professor Aulakh, have you done any research on the street gangs in the U.S. that are older than our street gangs and on what happens? Are they in the gangs until they're in their mid-twenties? Then what happens to them? Do you have any sense of that?

[Prof. Harpreet Aulakh]

From my experience with the kids.... My research basically focused on ex-gang members, so they had to exit the gangs to participate in my research. When they enter the gang early, at about 10 or 11 years old, they will exit at 15 or 16 years old. But those who enter late can go into their mid-twenties or later.

What I noticed in my research was a pattern. I called it a “life course” development. The life course development was as they grow, they mature: their physical age, their biological age, but also in their life in the gang. The first phase is attraction--fun, activities, parties, and everything. Then it becomes more demanding. That is the time when they think they need to get out, that this is not why they came here in the first place. That's the maturation phase.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

The committee has been struggling with how we classify the street gangs...as opposed to the traditional old-style families, to the bikers, and now the street gangs. From what I'm hearing, you would say that we should not be treating them the same as those other two groups.

Would you see, actually, having an amendment to the definition, a different definition for street gangs? They are somewhat organized, we can't take that away. Have you looked at that aspect of it?

[Prof. Harpreet Aulakh]

When I started working on the issue of youth gangs, my age criteria was below 18, so young people. But when I looked at the Criminal Code book, I was surprised that there is no definition of a “gang”. Being in a gang is not a crime. It actually comes under the umbrella of a criminal organization, and that's surprising.

When we bring them under that umbrella, we tend to equate them with the Hells Angels or bikers or whomever. That's a problem for me, because many of them are not organized and they're not there to be in a profitable business. Yes, money is valuable to them to buy all these accessories in the commercial world, but fun, excitement, family, belonging are all there.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I think Mrs. Chamut was first, if she wants, then Mr. Accord.

I'm not taking over the chair, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

No, that's fine.

[Norma Chamut]

I believe they all should be dubbed the same. They will do criminal activities and be recruited at a younger age because if they do these crimes, they get less time.

I believe they are all...and I don't care if you get ten 15-year-old kids together; they can be doing the same thing as, let's say, ten Hells Angels. Yes, the Hells Angels are legal and they can go into different places, but these kids are doing the same thing, and they're pulling less time because they're children.

So I believe they are organized crime. If you look up the definition, it's what they are. Just because they're young, it doesn't mean that it's any different from 30-year-old men getting together. Yes, they're children. They're 15 years old and they're making bad choices, but they still know what they're doing. When you're recruited and you put a patch on your back or you get a tattoo that you belong to that group, it is organized crime. I believe it's one and the same.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Mr. Accord.

[Mahamad Accord]

We're dealing with organized groups. Most of the people who have been killing here come from Ontario, I think especially Toronto. They have organized groups from our community.

When it comes to Albertans, we haven't experienced this yet, but it doesn't mean it's not going to happen. Those cities that have larger communities like ours, like Toronto, Ottawa, Minneapolis, they have it, so we are trying to prevent it from happening here. The issue we're dealing with is the people who are being recruited from Toronto and Hamilton.

Anyway, they are organized gangs, whether you identify it as a group or not.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

On the intimidation issue, Ms. Chamut, you say you're comfortable, and feeling safe, but for other people who you're helping to get out of the gangs, is there regular intimidation to try to force them to stay in?

[Norma Chamut]

Of course, because that's their money. If you have four girls who are working for you, making you your money, and there's an organization pulling them away, yes, they're going to come in and try to intimidate these girls into staying. Whether it's threatening their family, whether it's threatening their children, something that's close to them, yes, there is intimidation.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Any thoughts--Ms. Quinn, you may have done some work on this too--on what we could do, from a legislative standpoint, to reduce that level of intimidation?

[Norma Chamut]

How can you?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

It's just practical.

[Kate Quinn]

I'm afraid I don't have any suggestions from a legislative point of view. We really have to surround the young people or the adults who are trying to get out with better social supports. I don't know about legislation. I'd be interested in hearing...but that would be my first thought.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Do you advocate legalizing prostitution?

[Norma Chamut]

No, definitely not.