Justice Committee on March 29th, 2010

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I'm asking the question because we've talked a lot about the fact that a lot of the gang members—and Ms. Chamut mentioned this very clearly—are recruited because they don't feel accepted or they have a sort of neglected life at home that directs them towards these gangs. I don't think that's the problem with the Somali community, generally speaking, because the family unit is very strong and very important, and the values are there. Actually, that's true for a lot of the ethnic communities.

So you are telling us that the socio-professional and the socio-economic integration of these communities is the one factor that we should be focusing on to avoid that? Is that what you're telling us?

[Mahamad Accord]

Yes. You're hitting the nail right on the head. For our youth, it's not that they don't belong to a community. As you say, we have a strong community. The reason is frustration with the system, because there are no alternatives offered to them. Within our community we can offer them nothing, and outside the only people waiting for them are those who have other intentions, whether it's al Qaeda or organized criminals.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you.

I know Ms. Chamut wanted to react to that.

I know you said, “No, no”.

[Norma Chamut]

I don't believe that, because I come from a family of nine kids. I'm the only one out of all those kids who hit the street or did anything wrong. So I don't care how strong your family community is; if there's a child in there who doesn't feel they fit in, they go looking for it elsewhere. And I believe that's how kids become recruited.

I was out on that street a long time. I can go into a school, and I can tell you which child will end up in a gang because they have such low self-esteem, and they have all different kinds of issues, and they are looking for some kind of family to fit into. I don't care if your grandma hugs you every day. If you don't feel worthy, you're going looking for it elsewhere.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Okay, but that is the internal part of you. That really has nothing to do with the outside factors.

[Norma Chamut]

I think it has to do with the kids. I talk to a lot of kids, and they're from all different ethnic groups. Some are even Somali. I talk with lots of Somali kids. They love their mom and dad, but they still don't feel that they fit in somewhere. So they want to be recruited so they have a purpose and they fit in. That's why kids go hang out with gangs. That's why I did. That's why everybody that I hung out with did. They wanted to fit in somewhere. They didn't fit in anywhere else, but that's where they fit in.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

Mr. Rathgeber.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you to all the witnesses, not only for your appearance here this afternoon, but for the good work you do in Edmonton and elsewhere.

Ms. Quinn, it's nice to see you again.

I know you said you don't keep any hard stats on these issues, so I appreciate your answer will probably be anecdotal. I'm assuming that prostitution in this city is not a stand-alone industry, that the people who are involved in it are also involved in the distribution and trafficking of drugs.

Would that be a safe assumption?

[Kate Quinn]

That would be a safe assumption. It's linked.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Does that apply across the board, from the street level to the massage parlour level to the escort agency level?

[Kate Quinn]

There would be some connections, yes. Again, that's what I think our police service wants to focus more on. Our police chief has brought in more intelligence-based policing, and has put a priority on hiring a criminologist to help us get that kind of information, and to see what the integration is between the street and the more regulated forms.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

This question is for either one of you.

We've covered drug trafficking, and I think that's a fairly normal correlation, but are there other aspects of organized crime that these individuals are involved with...prostitution, drugs? I appreciate that this is anecdotal, but are they involved in money-laundering or identity theft?

Can you help me out?

[Kate Quinn]

I don't know about the money-laundering, but I would say definitely identity theft is one of the factors in there as well. Often, those who are involved in prostitution are also involved in other kinds of criminal activity, such as identity theft.

I have worked with some of the young people participating in the drug court. They've told me about the fraud and identity theft, as well as the prostitution and drug running they've been involved in, because it is all about survival--maintaining your position and trying to keep alive--so you do whatever.

I think it's also important to note--every large city has its list of sorrow, of murder victims--that in Edmonton we have over 32 young women who've been murdered over the last number of years. People say, “Is it a serial killer like Robert Pickton?” Well, perhaps one man has killed more than one woman. We also know, however, that some of those deaths are drug trade deaths, not serial killer deaths. The drug trade has become more cruel and more vicious. Again, we see many young men being killed in Edmonton. We also see that a number of the young women have been killed in drug trade retaliation.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you.

On that direct point--Mr. Accord, it's also good to see you here today--I've heard you say a number of times today and in the media recently that the problems of your community are rooted in a lack of integration, or marginalization.

I'm proud to represent northwest Edmonton, in Alberta, and as you know, we are very ethnically diverse. We have large ethnic populations in the northwest. I represent a large Lebanese community, a large Asian community, and also your community.

Why, in your view, has the Somali community been less successful in integrating into Canadian society than, say, the Asian community or the Lebanese community of northwest Edmonton?

[Mahamad Accord]

If you go through the community and ask, they will tell you a variety of reasons. One thing I see is that the communities before us had maybe one common issue, so they could successfully integrate into the larger community. Maybe the Vietnamese sort of shared the mainstream identity in terms of faith or another issue that is acceptable. Maybe the Lebanese had a shared faith, but the colour issue came in.

When I ask the community the reason, there are two things. First, we are mostly Muslim--97% or 98%--and second, we are African. Those two--colour and faith--become issues. That means that for the majority of people who are here—we are the largest African diaspora in Canada—nothing has been done to address some of the issues that keep us from becoming Canadians.

What usually happened in Ontario, Quebec, and B.C., where we landed when we came to Canada, was that we were offered services that were culturally appropriate. They were only good for the first five years. What happened next is where the rubber meets the road, which means that nothing has been done in that sense. After 20 years, even though they have been Canadian, when they move outside Ontario and that comfort zone of large, ethnically diverse cities, how do they replace it? What do you have? You are still Somali, even though you've been here for 20 years. And you're afraid that you won't be accepted by Canadians, because Canadians are mostly of cultures based on Judeo-Christian faiths. For me, I cannot call myself a Muslim unless I practise my faith. I have to pray five times a day. Otherwise, I am not Muslim.

What I eat is a challenge. It is a socio-economic issue, because where I shop, it is 25% higher than the grocery stores. So in terms of fitting in....

As well, when we look at those people from other ethnic communities who are involved in the drug trade, usually it is about belonging. That is not the case in our community. The other thing is that it is not about social status within the community. We have people who are very successful and are, I could say, more than middle class. But their kid is still involved in...the issue of the people who could recruit at al-Shabaab. So I think, if that's the case, what I'm saying to you is a lack of integration.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you so much.

We'll move on to Mr. Norlock. Keep it short, if you could.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Yes.

Thank you very much for coming today. I'm going to ask some short, quick questions.

When you talk about gangs, I immediately think of the movie Gangs of New York. They were Irish. Is that any different from the gangs of today, except that they were Irish then?

[Norma Chamut]

I think it's pretty well the same.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

They were from the lower class. If you were Irish, you didn't get the jobs, and so on.

That brings me to another question for Mr. Accord. Do you think we should go to affirmative action? In other words, you say that you're not getting a job because you're Somali. So should you get a job because you are Somali?

Should we do that? It has been tried in other places.

[Mahamad Accord]

No, I don't believe that. I don't believe that affirmative action is the way to go. Sometimes it is counterproductive.

One thing we are asking is how we can help those people to qualify. For example, we went to the police. They said that we don't have a qualified person, so should they lower the standard? We said no, but try to understand the reason why you do not have a qualified person. What we notice is that when we look at an 18- or 20-year-old, law enforcement is not in their milieu. They have that mentality, because it's passed on by their parents.

The other thing is that parents don't pass on the indigenous experiences that Canadians have. They don't have that. They came from a different culture. That also becomes a barrier. What we're looking for is not a handout but a hand up. That means that for people who are really looking for those qualifications.... If you are designing a machine to get a product, and you're not getting the right product, then you look at the machine and ask why it does not give the product that is expected.

I don't think affirmative action is the way to go.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

If you're talking business and you want to sell your services, then you don't expect the customer to come to you. You go to the customer. That's why I mentioned affirmative action. What can you do within the community?

One of the gentlemen we met in Toronto dealt with fatherless families. I think Ms. Mendes mentioned the fatherless families. The social unit was not there. But you have that. You have mother and father at home, and you have a very strong.... That's what I wanted to quickly ask Ms. Quinn or Ms. Chamut. You have a faith base that really does not encourage lawlessness. It actually encourages the opposite.

Could I have a short comment, please, so I can go to Ms. Quinn or Ms. Chamut?

[Mahamad Accord]

The challenge is that the system is not accommodating us, because we are involved, but the system does not go far enough to include us. The existing system that governs us was put in place when we were not here. There is resistance, in terms of the system, to including our ideas to make things better in Canada in that faith. That's the challenge. It's not the same as some of the challenges that other communities have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Mr. Woodworth, you have three and one-half minutes.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate it.

I thank the witnesses for being here, and I also wish to express my admiration for the work they do in the community. I know it seems like moving a mountain with a teaspoon, but that's how we make change.

I'd like to understand the scope of the problem, Mr. Accord, in regard to the Somali community. You mentioned that the total Somali population in Alberta is between 30,000 and 35,000 people. I'm going to guesstimate that the likely number of people in the 15 to 30 age range is 3,000 to 4,000. Of that number, some are young men and some are young women. How many of those 3,000 to 4,000 do you think have become involved in gangs?

[Mahamad Accord]

It's a very small number--0.009%--but somehow they end up getting killed; that is what's different.