Justice Committee on March 23rd, 2021

[Keith Wachtel]

That's a question that, unfortunately, would need to be answered by our ownership and the commissioner.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thanks a lot.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Ms. Briere.

Mr. Fortin, you have two and a half minutes. Please go ahead.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

If the Nordiques come back to Quebec City, I want to know before anyone else. I'll have bets on that.

My question is for Mr. Melia.

I understand that the Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport covers a number of sports, not just hockey, for example.

I would like to hear your views on the issue of including horse racing betting in Bill C-218.

There is a debate right now. Some would like to see horse racing bets excluded and others think they should be treated the same as any other sports bet.

[Paul Melia]

I haven't actually given a lot of thought to that particular issue. I wouldn't see why it would be excluded. It is a sport, and it can be regulated. All of the same concerns that one would have around match manipulation in sport racing would be the same ones we would have around match manipulation in other sports.

The importance of education, the importance of being able to report when it's happening and to have consequences, all of those issues would need to be part of the regulatory framework applied to all sports, including horse racing.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I would like to discuss another topic with you, Mr. Melia.

My colleague just spoke about problem gambling. It's an important concern for us and for the public at large. Obviously, we would like to know what each of the organizations is doing or can do to try to curb this problem. I'd like to get your perspective on that.

Is there a way to do things that could be applied to all sports or would it need to be adapted?

What are your views on combatting compulsive betting?

[Paul Melia]

I think it starts with education. Again, this gambling, this single game betting is going on. The legislation that's being proposed is a way in Canada of creating a legislative framework and regulation around it. Part of that regulation should surely include education and support services for mental health and addiction that is associated with gambling.

I think the legislation provides an opportunity to provide greater services and support to those who may become addicted to gambling than the current system, where we have an unregulated market and where it's going on. We're not really aware of how much is going on, who may be addicted and who might be harmed, so I think there's an opportunity to provide the appropriate services.

This goes to the revenue sharing that would come—

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you.

[Paul Melia]

—from the gambling to make sure it supports those support services.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Melia.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Fortin.

Last, but definitely not least, is Mr. Masse.

You have two and half minutes as our last questioner for this round. Go ahead, sir.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'll bring Mr. Shoemaker back into the conversation here to provide some comments with regard to the Olympics.

The Olympics have a mixture of professional and amateur athletes. I think the consistency you're requesting is important. Perhaps you could highlight that. I think that's a unique aspect with regard to how we bring in regulation and also watch for matchmaking and so forth.

[David Shoemaker]

Absolutely. I think that's part of a theme. We need to pay close attention to the trends that have happened globally, the trends around legalization and the trends that digitization in sport have created around us. We have what is reported to be nearly a $15-billion industry that's happening right now, and only 3% of it, to our understanding through some of the studies that we've done, is happening legally on single game betting.

We think that the same framework should occur for professional athletes as occurs for amateur athletes. We very much think that this notion of amateur athlete cannot be lost in this conversation. Mr. Melia commented on this notion that the vulnerabilities and the risks to them may in fact outweigh those to professional athletes, where the incentive to manipulate can be much greater, given that they do not earn a great income from their sport.

Having said that, there are two ways of looking at this in the Olympic games. The incentive to throw something in the Olympic games at the Olympic games themselves may not be that high. It's in those national sporting competitions, things that are occurring back in Canada, where there's still a whole lot of gambling going on, where we have real concern.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

A lot of that is taking place in the illegal market right now.

I think your point is actually something we really need to do some extra work on because the amateur sport athletes become professionals. Obviously, getting into the behaviour that we don't want to have happen and then advancing the professional is worse than actually doing what you're saying right now. Take it more responsibly so that best practices are there as they advance through their sports.

[David Shoemaker]

Yes, correct. Again, there are young athletes who, in most cases, are all amateur, meaning they are not earning money in their sport. Then there are many who are Olympic athletes. We think of them as NHLers, let's say, competing in the Olympics. We think of these as professional athletes competing in the Olympic games, yet they are the very definition of an amateur athlete—a rower, a luger, a bobsleigh athlete—who do earn some income but not a huge income like the major professional sport athletes in this country.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Yes. If we do nothing on this, if we leave it as status quo, then all of that goes to organized crime right now and other types of betting off site.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thanks very much.

That concludes our first hour.

I would like to take a moment to thank all of the witnesses for their incredible testimony today, for taking the time and for being with us and answering our many questions. I really appreciate it.

If there are any further clarifications that you would like to provide based on some of the questions that you heard today, please don't hesitate to send our clerk a note. We'll get that circulated amongst us as well.

Thank you again.

We'll now suspend for a moment as we start our second round and let in our witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

I call the meeting back to order.

Before we get into the testimony, I will make a few comments for the benefit of our witnesses.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you're ready to speak, you can click on the microphone icon to activate your mike. When you're not speaking, please make sure you are on mute.

Interpretation for the video conference is available at the bottom of your screen. Make sure that you have selected the language you would like to listen to. You can speak either of our official languages. When you are speaking, please speak slowly and clearly so that we don't have issues with interpretation.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses. From the Central Ontario Standardbred Association we have Bill O’Donnell, who is the president, and Dave Drew, who is a finance committee member. From the Mohawk Council of Kahnawake we have Chief Gina Deer, Chief Michael Delisle Jr. and Renée Pelletier, who is a lawyer and managing partner at Olthuis Kleer Townshend. From Score Media and Gaming Inc. we have John Levy, who is the chairman and chief executive officer.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

Mr. Lewis has a point of order.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate this.

I want to make two points. First, MP Waugh will be subbing in for me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Yes, I was notified of that.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

The second thing is for Mr. Levy. I'm going to be a grandfather on May 16 and my grandson's name will be Levy. I wish I could be here for the conversation, but this is pretty exciting.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Have a great meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Lewis. I appreciate that intervention.

We'll now hear from our witnesses, for five minutes each. I'll let you know that I have a one-minute card and 30-second card that will allow you to keep time.

We'll start with the Central Ontario Standardbred Association.

Please go ahead, Mr. O'Donnell. You have five minutes.

[Bill O’Donnell, President, Central Ontario Standardbred Association]

Good afternoon. Thank you, Madam Chair, for this opportunity to present to your committee.

My name is Bill O'Donnell. I am the president of the Central Ontario Standardbred Association, which represents and supports the horse owners, trainers, drivers, caretakers, tradespeople and others who participate in horse racing in Ontario's 12 standardbred tracks.

I have been involved in horse racing all my life, as an owner, breeder, trainer and driver. I am currently the vice-president of the Ontario Standardbred Adoption Society, or OSAS for short, which is where we find homes for retired racehorses. I am also a director on the Ontario Racing board.

Our association supports the proposed expansion and regulation of single-event sports wagering in Canada but wants to ensure that our agriculture-based horse-racing industry is protected in the process.

I'd now like to turn our presentation over to Dave Drew for more details about our recommended changes to Bill C-218.