Official Languages Committee on Nov. 7th, 2006

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

You have the floor Mr. André.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Good afternoon.

I will continue by speaking about the Court Challenges Program. I am aware of the fact that New Brunswick had some striking victories thanks to the program, particularly in terms of the health care network. You fought a good fight in Acadia.

What impact will the elimination of this program have on the development of your community and of the francophonie in New Brunswick? I know that it is important.

According to you, why did the government cut this program? What was the overall idea behind it? What alternative would you suggest as a way of defending your community's rights?

[Daniel Thériault]

I thought that someone else wanted to answer. As I represent the Société des Acadiens et Acadiennes du Nouveau-Brunswick, and as that is rather the focus of our action, I will answer.

We did indeed have several victories. Thanks to the Court Challenges Program, we were able to intervene and get involved in a case that challenged a number of parts of the Official Languages Act. There is a new Official Languages Act that applies to municipalities, which was not the case before. Furthermore, the Canada Health Act contain no provisions about official languages. The current Act is now stronger from this standpoint. That was a victory then.

We were successful in maintaining the boundaries of the Acadie-Bathurst electoral district as a result of this program. We had an initial victory with respect to the RCMP, because the judges ruled in our favour. Unfortunately, the federal government challenged the victory. Then, there were reservations about the initial judgment and we are appealing this to the Supreme Court of Canada. We received a response from the Court Challenges Program on September 12 telling us that our project was being supported.

We could not have fought these battles without the program, or at least it would have been difficult. We are talking about many thousands of dollars. When there is a challenge, the thousands of dollars in legal fees build up and not many organizations can cover those sorts of expenses, and it is even more difficult for individuals. That is what this program has made possible. As for the schools, there were cases in Prince Edward Island where it made the difference between having a school and not having one. We used it to strengthen the political-legal framework in New Brunswick.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Why do you feel this program was eliminated? Were there excesses? What reasons did the government give for eliminating a program like this one?

[Josée Nadeau]

We don't know why it was done, because our community was not consulted. That was one of our greatest frustrations when the cuts were announced. We were never consulted to determine whether the fat was being cut or whether the program was useful to francophones. As I mentioned earlier, parents federations receive a great deal of assistance under the program. I would find it hard to believe that it would be possible for one or two parents, or francophone organizations, to be able to do battle in the Supreme Court to have a school in their community. Asking for that would be almost foolish.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

There are 45 seconds remaining.

[Richard Caissier]

Thank you, Mr. Godin.

I would add that one of the rare advantages of Canadian society has been that governments gave tools to the disadvantaged or to the weaker groups to allow them to challenge decisions that were disadvantageous to them. This enabled them to challenge the government's decisions. Perhaps the current government has eliminated these services or these tools because they are afraid of criticism or challenges from citizens and the most vulnerable among us.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Thank you, Mr. Caissier.

I'll now give the floor to Mr. Lemieux.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you for your presentations.

This is the first time that the committee has travelled to meet you on your home territory. This took place while our party is in power; it's important.

I thank you for having shared with us your challenges and this information. This meeting also gives us an opportunity to provide you with some key information. Our government would like to support and promote the vitality of your minority language communities. I would like to give you a few examples. We have just announced a number of initiatives, including a billion-agreement between the provincial and federal government to promote official languages.

I noticed that there are many accomplishments within your education systems. You have 143 schools at each level, perhaps more today. It is a major accomplishment and I congratulate you on it.

Among other initiatives for communities, we announced a $120 million-agreement to work directly with your communities to keep them vital, which represents an 11% increase.

As for literacy, although there have been cuts, we are going to spend $82 million on literacy over the next two years. You therefore have our support, and we are going to spend that amount on these programs.

You represent several associations and organizations and you informed us today of a number of needs. How do you work together to set priorities? It is easy to have numerous challenges, but it is really important to have priorities. In New Brunswick, what are the five priorities?

How are you going to work together to talk about all the challenges and set the priorities?

[Daniel Thériault]

Somewhat earlier, I spoke briefly about the Forum de concertation des organismes acadiens. This involves 32 francophone organizations that sat around the same table and established an overall development plan. They set their priorities sector-by-sector. The brief that we submitted to Ms. Verner in May sets out the priorities by sector and indicates the societal issues at stake. I would ask the committee to perhaps have it translated so that everyone can share it. That is how we set our priorities. We truly work towards developing our communities. We have succeeded in many areas, and we could talk about them if we had more time.

[Achille Maillet]

One of the priorities we discussed was precisely the question of cuts. I presume, Mr. Lemieux, that you are on the government's side. You are therefore perhaps in a position to answer the question, because as Ms. Nadeau was saying earlier, we were never consulted. These cuts directly affect the francophone and Acadian population in the Atlantic provinces; no doubt about it. We do not have the answers because we were not consulted. We would like to suggest some answers to you, such as going back on your decision, as Mr. Gauthier was suggesting, because it is really doing some damage.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I will answer you. There were no cuts for official languages. The funds are there. Furthermore, let us take the example of farm assistance programs. We cut $5 million, but there is one little-known fact: there were administrative expenses of $15 million to pay out $11 million. Administrative costs are indeed very high. We did not reduce the programs directly, but cut back on $5 million in administrative expenses. It is almost the same for the other cuts. There have been cuts, but the programs remain, the funds remain, and our government will support your communities and your needs as effectively as possible.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

There can be no answer to this question.

[Jean-Luc Bélanger, As an Individual]

I have been trying to speak several times.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

I can't let you speak unless I give you part of my time. I am going to give you an opportunity to speak. Normally, as I have said at previous meetings of the committee, I would be sitting elsewhere to ask my question, but I'm going to do so here.

I would like to correct Mr. Lemieux, who said that the Conservative government had come here to meet us. If it was the government, there would at least be a minister. It's the parliamentary committee, which includes representatives from all the political parties, that is here and that has a mandate from Parliament. It is not the government that is here, but the four political parties represented in Canada's Parliament.

There was discussion of cuts. Mr. Lemieux said that millions were injected, but what is the impact? That is the question I want to ask. For example, Bill S-3 was enacted, after being introduced by Jean-Robert Gauthier, the former senator. He made three attempts before Canada's Parliament enacted it. The Liberals were no better back in the day.

If the Court Challenges Program is eliminated, how far of a backward step will this be? There may be a lot of money. Mr. Lemieux spoke of $15 million on administration and $11 million for the communities or for the people. That's all very well, but without this program, would we still have the Montfort Hospital in Ottawa? Would there be a francophone school in Prince Edward Island? Would there be a francophone school in British Columbia? That is the question that needs to be asked and that is what we ought to be telling our government.

I would like to give Mr. Bélanger an opportunity to speak, because he has wanted to say something for some time.

[Jean-Luc Bélanger]

I do not know who is advising the government at the moment, but it has gone completely off the rails. First of all, it is not adhering to the fundamental principle of Bill S-3, which is to hold consultations. There are perhaps other ways of working, other ways of doing it, but we've been told about cuts, forecasts and things of which we are not aware, and about which we were not consulted. The purpose of this act is to really have consultations and to develop partnerships with the minority francophone communities in the country. Acting as they have goes completely against the basic principle underlying this act. I find this incomprehensible and unfortunate for the Acadian and francophone population and minorities in Canada. What is happening is senseless. We are really devastated by it. We are prepared to cooperate and to look into ways that we can work together, but we need to be consulted. You can't make budget cuts to Canada's francophone minorities on this scale without working with them. It demonstrates a deplorable level of awareness and a lack of information.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

This was Bill S-3.

[Jean-Luc Bélanger]

That is correct; yes.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Mr. Gauthier, did you want to talk about the cuts?

[Louis-Philippe Gauthier]

Mr. Lemieux said that the government was going to spend money. I would like to point out that we are not the people he ought to be telling about these things. It is up to you to communicate them effectively. In the same week, we saw cuts of over a billion dollars in programs that were essential to our communities, and paying down the $13 billion-debt, if I am not mistaken. The spending should have been announced at the same time.

Of course, there is the issue of consultation. The communities were not consulted. This is the interpretation the government has given to current legislation. I would add my voice to the opinion of the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada to the effect that this complies neither with the letter nor the spirit of the Official Languages Act.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

I would like to hear what you think. I would not deny the $15 million-figure, but let's total up the value of volunteerism in Canada! What would happen to the minority communities if the people who work in the associations and give their time to their community decided to pack up their bags, go home and stop doing things?

[Achille Maillet]

What can I add to that? You are absolutely right. Volunteerism is invaluable. When I think of my little community of Dieppe, I know that without our volunteers, Dieppe would not be what it is either now or in the future. The contribution of volunteers in Canada is priceless. How can you place a value on it? You have raised another very important point, Mr. Godin. Once again, it is incomprehensible, very unfortunate and pitiful to see what the Harper government has given us and is forcing us to swallow. It is senseless.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Mr. Simard, you have the floor.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I would like to thank all the guests.

I think that the committee needs to be careful and avoid falling into the trap of becoming too political. On the other hand, I see that every time we have been invited, people talk about the cuts and tell us how devastating they have been for them. I believe that people are feeling them strongly right now because these cuts are very recent: they are only a month old. I can tell you that they have also been devastating for us. They target francophone organizations. I understand exactly what you are saying.

Yesterday, we were in Newfoundland, where only 0.4% of the population is francophone. This morning, we heard talk about Prince Edward Island, where the percentage is perhaps 2%. At home, it is 4%. Here, you represent 33% of the population, you have physical infrastructures and your province is officially bilingual. I tell myself that this is paradise and wonder how these people can have problems. If you come to our corner of the country, you will see what I mean.

Could you enlighten me a bit? Does the problem stem from the fact that francophones are in one corner of the country and anglophones in another? Are services for francophones deficient there or is there an anglophone majority?

There was discussion of moving. Earlier, Mr. Maillet spoke, I believe, about workplaces and other things. What is the big problem here? It seems to me that you have done everything that needed to be done.

[Josée Nadeau]

One of the problems for us at the Association francophone des parents du Nouveau-Brunswick is that things like specialized health services are not accessible in several regions. Families call me up because they are trying to find a francophone speech therapist and it's impossible to find one. The wait lists are for three years. There are still serious problems. If we are talking about the Acadian Peninsula and the northwestern and northeastern part of the province, the community is more anglo-francophone, if I may describe it in this way. In fact, the majority is now francophone. However, here the southeastern part of the province, in Kent county, in Saint John, in Fredericton and in Miramichi, there is still an enormous amount of work to be done in terms of services for francophones. For example, offices for federal services have been moved. Some of the offices that have been closed are also causing enormous harm to francophones, even though we make up 33% of the population.