Official Languages Committee on Sept. 27th, 2016

[David Manicom]

That is correct. We have no official Canadian test. The test we use is not designed specifically to determine immigrants' language knowledge. They are also used in universities and elsewhere. The cost of it varies, depending on the market and the location where it is administered, whether in France, in Asia or in Canada. It is the organization that sets the price.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I do not know whether you heard the report this morning, but one immigrant mentioned that the cost of the test discourages francophone immigrants from taking the French test even if French is their mother tongue. How can it be that Canada does not have a Canadian French test? How can it be that the price of the tests, in French or English, is not the same everywhere in the country?

Are these tests administered in the private sector?

[David Manicom]

Yes.

Ms. Prince-St-Amand is in a better position to answer your question than I am.

[Corinne Prince-St-Amand, Director General, Integration and Foreign Credentials Referral Office, Department of Citizenship and Immigration]

We do assessments in French in Canada. To get an equivalence, we provide a bridge between the tests taken outside Canada and the Canadian criteria.

To answer your first question about the target, we have found that a majority of francophones outside the country who want to immigrate to Canada choose Quebec because they believe it is the only province in Canada where they can live in French.

For some years, through pre-departure services and Destination Canada, which is in a way our standard-bearer, the department has tried to interest francophones from the four corners of the world to settle in Canada and to inform them that there are minority francophone communities everywhere in Canada and that it is very possible to live in French outside Quebec and to have your children taught in francophone schools.

For some years, the department has been making efforts to inform francophones who are considering the possibility of immigrating to Canada that they can also settle outside Quebec if they want to live in French in Canada.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Your time is up. You had three seconds left.

Mr. Samson, you have the floor.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being with us today. We are pleased to have you here.

We are also happy that you are examining the issue of francophone immigration in detail. As Mr. Généreux has shown, the target is 4%, but we only achieved 1.5% over the last five years. Clearly, it is not working. What should we do? I am concerned. We have to do something fast.

That being said, as Ms. Prince-St-Amand noted, people have to be made aware of the fact that there is French outside Quebec. That is the first thing.

The second thing is that it is complicated to recruit where Quebec has been recruiting for 20 years, because Quebec is already in the market and has expertise. So we have to agree on finding agencies to help us in this community. I am familiar with Destination Canada and that entire subject. On the other hand, I do not know what the solution is. You are the experts.

Can you tell me whether your office has a section that is dedicated solely to francophone immigration outside Quebec? Is there a team that works on strategy to make sure that we will have reached the 4% target in five years?

If not, in my view, you will probably have only 1.5% or 1.6% or 1.7% or 1.8% and the 4% target will not have been reached. Every time it does not work, we are not supporting the communities and we are not ensuring their vitality.

Do you have a team? If not, are you thinking about it, and in what way? I am going to start with those questions.

Don't take too much time to answer in case I have other questions. Please focus your answer.

[David Manicom]

Yes.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

You have a team dedicated to that.

[David Manicom]

Yes.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

How long has it existed?

[David Manicom]

For a long time.

[Corinne Prince-St-Amand]

For several years.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I am sorry, but you need to change the team.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

It is the trainer.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

The math is simple. If a team is doing only that, morning to night, and achieves only 1.5%, that means something is not working.

I am not blaming the employees, but the strategy is not working. You have to shut yourself in a room and find solutions. We have a duty to do that. For the francophone communities outside Quebec, we need to build a structure and we have to do it together. We have to find one.

I may not have the right to ask, but we need to see the structure that is there. We need a report on your strategy for the next three years in which you—whether it is the department or one of its sections—tells us clearly that you are confident you will reach the 4% target in five years. If we do not do that, we are going to have problems.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

If I may intervene.

Mr. Samson, you can ask for that, in fact.

Mr. Manicom, we are also asking that you provide us with a list of the people who make up the team and tell us how it works. You can send that document to our clerk so she can provide it to the committee members.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

You can also provide us with the action plan.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Yes, we would also like to have the action plan.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I have a second question. I do not have a lot of time.

[David Manicom]

Do you have a question?

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

My question is about the present roadmap. We know that $149 million has been allocated to immigration, another $120 million to something else, and so on. That is not what concerns me. It is rather the fact that the Commissioner is saying that the funding paid for immigration is being used for learning the majority language and not the minority language.

How much money and what measures does your action plan provide for the minority language, to achieve your targets? We will need the report on your action plan that you are going to submit. How much money is there in that fund for your action plan for francophones outside Quebec?

[Corinne Prince-St-Amand]

That is an excellent question, Mr. Samson.

I will start with the first point.

As Mr. Manicom said, we have a team in several places, throughout the department and abroad. Two or three years ago, we established an official languages secretariat. We have an excellent champion in the person of Ms. Beck. She looks after organizing and coordinating the whole department and all our efforts to make sure not only that our targets are achieved, but also that all aspects of the Official Languages Act are followed.

In the settlement branch, we also have a small official languages team, and outside Canada—in Paris and in other embassies—we also have people who handle pre-departure services and Destination Canada. Mr. Cochrane will be able to explain how that works.

As I said earlier, Quebec is known around the world as a place where everyone lives in French; that is a fact of life in Canada. It is fantastic to have this. We have to think not just about the 1.4% who are francophones who come to Canada outside Quebec, but also about all the people Quebec welcomes every year.

Achieving the target is a complex challenge. We have to give notice not just outside Canada, but also here, in Canada, in cooperation with our partners—the provinces, territories and francophone communities.

Take the example of someone from France who immigrates to Canada, to Saskatoon. If the community in Saskatoon does not welcome them and they cannot find a spot in a francophone school for their children, they are going to say that they cannot life in French.

Communities and employers also have responsibilities in this. The best way to keep someone in a community is to make sure they are able to work there.

We do a lot of work to encourage our employers to hire francophones, and we can always do more. With the help of our partners, we will succeed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you, Ms. Prince-St-Amand.

Mr. Choquette, you have the floor.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Manicom, you said you had just received the Commissioner's report about the French test for immigrants, and that the test costs more than the English test. That surprised me. In fact, it costs almost double. The French test can cost as much as $485, which is almost double the cost of the English test. In addition, there are only 12 cities that offer the French test, but half of those cities are in Quebec, while there are 33 cities that offer the English test. It can take up to five months to receive the results of the French test, while the time for the English test is only a few weeks. That is totally unacceptable.

You tell me you only received the report yesterday. In fact, people have been complaining about this since August 2015. So do not tell me you received the report yesterday.

Yes, you received the report yesterday, but you were aware of the situation well before that. You aware of it for a year. It was a very sure thing that the report was going to say that you were not abiding by the Official Languages Act. The two languages are on equal footing. You therefore cannot ask someone to pay double the price to take the French test, or to take a plane to do it. Think about the Yukon francophone communities. The people in those communities in Yukon have to take a plane to take the French test.

As Mr. Samson said, we want to make sure that francophones can settle in official language minority communities. Then they are told that the French test is not available, they have to take a plane to take the test and pay double the price of the English test. People are shocked, and you had known that since August 2015.

The Commissioner is making three recommendations. Of course, you will tell me that you are going to implement them very soon now, I am sure of it. How is it that you have done nothing since August 2015, when you knew very well that you were not abiding by the Official Languages Act?