Official Languages Committee on Sept. 27th, 2016

[David Manicom]

Ms. Beck may wish to add, but my understanding of the 4% target is that it's based on the francophone population outside of Quebec at the time the standard was set, so it's to maintain that level.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

It's not an increase; it's a maintenance level.

[David Manicom]

Yes.

I do want to take this opportunity to add very quickly that although it's been a big challenge over the last number of years—as civil servants we implement the policies of the government of the day—we certainly do have reason for optimism that we're going to increase that number dramatically.

Our most recent draw from express entry did have 4% of self-identified francophones in the pool. It's been about 3% for the year, as opposed to 2% last year, so it's rising steadily. My minister is very actively examining and publicly consulting on measures to see if we can boost that as well.

One further measure he's looking at changing in the express entry system, as he's been saying publicly, is with regard to international students. Some combination of particular selection benefit for international students and for having the preponderance of language skills in French, we think, is probably the most likely way to boost the economic numbers significantly.

It doesn't mean that our promotion or recruitment activity efforts aren't important. It doesn't mean the retention efforts aren't important. It doesn't mean that employers in communities have to really work hard to retain the francophone immigrants they get.

With federal government tools, we think that providing graduating international students with open work permits for a couple of years after they graduate and providing them with additional bonus points through our selection grid is probably the best lever the federal government has available. My minister certainly signals his intention to use these levers, with details to come soon.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Mr. Choquette, the floor is yours.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You see what I'm getting at.

I'm going to talk about the French tests again, because the following can be found in the report. I have the French version with me, and I might be able to file it with the committee at the end of the meeting. I'd like to translate the following excerpt: “Part IV of the Act […] seeks to ensure that the public has access to services of equal quality in both official languages. […]”

Further on, the report states, and this is once again a translation of the French: “The same duty applies to other offices, in Canada or elsewhere”, but only where there is “significant demand in both official languages.”

Earlier, it was mentioned that, in small offices where there are only one or two requests per year, the Official Languages Act does not apply, and that it only really applies to places where the demand is strong. Access to these tests is so important that the commissioner wrote as follows further on, and I am translating once again: “[…] [IRCC] has not taken any measures to offset these obstacles, which could have negative consequences for the intake of francophone immigrants in [official language minority communities], and ultimately for the vitality of those communities.”

Thus, since the objective is ultimately to achieve 4%, and we've only achieved 1.5%, the commissioner says that one of the obstacles is equality of access to the criteria, including the French and English language proficiency tests. Three recommendations are made in this regard.

I know that you had already started to do some work in this regard, and that you met with, and obtained suggestions from, official language communities. However, at the time, you responded that you could not do anything about the cost of the tests. But surely you must have analyzed certain avenues for solutions with respect to those costs.

How far along are you in your reflection about the solutions you might adopt to comply with the Official Languages Act, given that parts IV and VII of the act are not presently being complied with?

[David Manicom]

I don't have much to add to my previous answers. I'd just like to note that we talk frequently with the people at TEF who are responsible for the French test. We encourage them in their work, and we're considering the possibility of subsidizing the exams. It will be expensive, but we're examining the options, and are preparing them.

I don't want to leave you with the impression that the French exam costs double what the English one costs. It's more expensive in some places, and less expensive in Paris, to mention an example. As a general rule, the exam costs $330 in Montréal and $460 in Ottawa. As for the English exams, they cost roughly $300 throughout Canada. There is certainly a price difference. We would like the exam to be available where there are applicants, but it's difficult to offer it in places where there aren't any.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

I'm really sorry, Mr. Manicom. I have very little time at my disposal. I have one last question for you.

Is there a mechanism for identifying the official language adopted by new refugees in Canada? When they settle in a province, is there a mechanism for determining which language a Syrian who arrives in New Brunswick ends up adopting?

[Stefanie Beck]

We can find out what language course he chooses. If he chooses French or English language courses, we know it, and can compile statistics on the subject. However, we can't say which language the person chooses to use in the workplace, or in everyday living.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you.

Mr. Généreux, you have the floor.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Chair. Thank you for granting me this time.

I will continue on the same subject.

We have only obtained a partial answer about the number of potential immigrants who can come and settle in Canada's official language minority communities.

If immigration applicants outside the country learn it costs more to take a test to come to Canada, they will go where it costs less. In my view, this could lead to immigrant diversion. Once again, the report broadcast this morning was quite clear on the subject.

You just said that you're analyzing the possibility of subsidizing the exam. Are you able to sort out which immigrants want to settle in a minority community, and which ones simply want to come to Canada? Is there a way to separate the applications from the start, according to that choice?

[Stefanie Beck]

When people submit their application, they sometimes say where they want to go. We normally have statistics by province. A bit more research would be needed to have them by city, or by minority community.

But I should repeat that it isn't necessary to have taken a French test in order to settle in a minority francophone community.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I understand, but sometimes, when someone is encouraged to do something, there's more of a chance they will do it.

[Stefanie Beck]

That's true.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I don't know if it would be discriminatory to do this, but let's say someone decides to settle in a francophone area of Manitoba. If he's asked where in Canada he'd like to settle, and he gives that as an answer, couldn't his test be subsidized, so it's less expensive? Earlier, you were saying that there are hundreds of thousands of applications. I imagine this also includes English, and not just French applications. Is it possible to separate the francophones from the others? Is there a way to determine subcategories? Could one decide to subsidize the test for certain categories, so as to increase the number of people interested in settling where there are francophone communities outside Quebec?

[David Manicom]

That's a good question, and we will have to consider the possibility of subsidizing tests.

I presume the most important thing is probably the regular availability of the tests, because the price difference, globally, is really not very high. For example, in Nigeria, the price difference is $28.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I understand.

[David Manicom]

In Paris, it's less expensive.

I presume that offering the tests regularly, each week rather than each month, in more cities and more locations—

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I understand that you are also making efforts in specific countries, with a view to attracting specific types of clients. When you already know what kind of clientele you're seeking, isn't it possible to choose those places and ensure the French tests, which are more limited in number, will be less expensive than, say, the English tests, to encourage people to choose to go where there are minority communities?

Before I conclude, I'd like you to provide the committee the organization chart showing what a person submitting an application must do. Once someone submits an application, anywhere in the world, to immigrate or settle in Canada, what are the steps? Which tests need to be taken before being accepted in Canada?

[Stefanie Beck]

Are you referring to economic immigration?

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Indeed. If there's another type of immigration, I'd like to know that too.

[Stefanie Beck]

With families—with spouses—it's different.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I'd like to know this for each type of immigration. I don't know if it's possible. Does such a study exist?

[Stefanie Beck]

There are many.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

You say there are many.

[Stefanie Beck]

Yes, but—