Official Languages Committee on Feb. 2nd, 2017

[Carl Trottier]

Very well, thank you.

To answer your question, I am not going to choose a ranking from 1 to 10. I will simply say that the topic of official languages is extremely important at Treasury Board. I'll put it that way. Not only is it important for the Secretariat of the Treasury Board, but also for the Clerk of the Privy Council and for the minister responsible for Treasury Board. These are files that are very important to them.

The Clerk of the Privy Council even asked two deputy ministers to create a working group on the language of work to try to find solutions in order to improve the situation with regard to language of work in the public service. A study is being done and a report is going to be given to the Clerk of the Privy Council. I am sure that this will lead to recommendations for measures to be implemented to improve the situation.

That is the only way I can answer you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

Thank you.

Mr. Choquette, you have three minutes.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I wanted to come back to section 91 of the act as it relates to supervisory positions. A working group has been set up. Is the purpose to figure out how you can comply with the regulations and thus address the commissioner's concerns? Or is the idea to find some sort of compromise? What exactly is the group trying to achieve?

[Carsten Quell]

I would say that its first objective is to develop a good understanding of where things stand and to identify how many positions are affected. Investigations have also been carried out to determine what kinds of problems managers face when it comes to identifying the positions.

The basis for the exercise is a solid understanding of the facts and trends, as well as a recognition that improvements have been made. The goal is to better understand the positive measures that can facilitate compliance with section 91 and to determine what the barriers are. That is the goal.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

What is the group's timetable?

[Carsten Quell]

We hope to have finished gathering data by the spring and to then start evaluating possible solutions.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

You are working with someone from the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages on this, are you not?

[Carsten Quell]

Yes, indeed.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Very well.

In the meantime, though, bilingualism continues to be referred to as an asset in job postings.

[Carsten Quell]

Treasury Board policy has not changed and does apply. The commissioner has commented on that. We endeavour to establish appropriate language requirements for each position. That's why we sat down with the commissioner and his colleagues; we wanted to understand the issue as best we could. We are convinced that solutions emerge when all the facts can be taken into account.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Are you working with the commissioner's office on other issues?

[Carsten Quell]

We've discussed the active offer issue. We've also set up a working group with the commissioner's office to review the Official Languages Regulations, in co-operation with the FCFA and the QCGN.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

Mr. Généreux, you may go ahead.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Earlier you talked about providing us with a technical briefing. That's obviously something the committee will discuss. The chair thanked you for your co-operation, and I would like to do the same.

In addition to the technical briefing, would it be possible to provide us with an organization chart? Are you able to put together an organization chart? That way, we could see at a glance all the elements of each department and everyone's roles, particularly those of the champions.

[Carl Trottier]

Okay.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

As a visual person, I quite appreciate being able to see where things are going and who to turn to in order to get things done.

For years, people I know have told me that the reality of bilingualism on the ground isn't always as rosy as the picture we are asked to present, and that's unfortunate.

That brings me back to the self-assessment. I realize that it's one piece of the puzzle that helps you arrive at the end result.

In your speaking notes, you indicate that you don't really have the information requested. Allow me to find the paragraph. It begins, “This being said”. You stated that the committee sought a list of problematic institutions, which you unfortunately didn't have.

I have trouble understanding how you cannot have a clear picture of that or, at the very least, some idea.

If I were to ask you which government institution was struggling the most right now on the bilingualism front, could you give me an answer off the top of your head? I'm not asking for a list.

[Carl Trottier]

I'm trying to be as clear as I possibly can. What measure do you use to determine that?

Take, for example, a department with customs operations that has trouble hiring staff or a department that operates ships. The data for those departments will differ from the data of other institutions, despite the fact that the deputy head may have done more than the deputy head of another department in order to address the shortcomings. Should I tell that deputy head that their organization is in the bottom 10?

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

It's important for you to understand that the committee's objective isn't to point the finger at the guilty parties or to single out those who aren't doing their jobs. Rather, we are trying to identify the measures that work. Earlier you mentioned elements that help some departments perform quite well. Those best practices could be shared with other departments.

What tools do you provide to departments that have sound practices in place so that they can share those practices with organizations that aren't doing as well?

I realize that people who work on a ship and those who work in an office don't operate under the same working conditions. Given the chain of command and other aspects, they are in different situations. It's all relative. Clearly, the idea isn't to compare apples and oranges.

It would be useful if we could pinpoint the places where things are working well. The committee's role is to improve services to Canadians.

[Carl Trottier]

Yes.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

That is the Standing Committee on Official Languages' top objective. Achieving that objective means we need information to tell us what additional steps can be taken in a particular location and which policies can be introduced to help you fix the problems.

If we don't have that information and we can't pinpoint the problem areas, how would you suggest we determine the right practices to adopt? It's akin to a dog chasing its tail. We'll never get anywhere if we can't zero in on the issues as precisely as possible.

[Carl Trottier]

When we look at the data, however, we are able to say what the current themes or problem types are. We can identify the key problems, and we can do that precisely because we examine everyone.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

As I previously said, I have a private sector mindset. When I scrutinize my business or a given problematic situation, certain elements emerge, certain themes and categories. My next move is to put measures in place to address a particular issue.

If we don't have that information, how can we equip you with the tools you need or help lay the groundwork for certain tools so that you have the resources to fix the problem?

It's crucial to pinpoint the problem. It's important to have a list of the institutions that aren't performing well in order to figure out why that is. As things stand, we aren't in a position to address the issues. That's what we have been trying to tell you all morning. I believe it was the same in the fall. You can send us all the reports you want, but the fact remains that we aren't able to ascertain which of the 220 federal departments and agencies are struggling the most. Nor are we able to determine whether any tendencies that would help us hone in on the problem are emerging.

[Carl Trottier]

I heard you loud and clear, but I also want to let you know what my constraints are. You have to have the right measure when you are evaluating something.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I agree with you completely.