Official Languages Committee on April 22nd, 2021

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Do you believe, then, that francophone immigrant integration programs could be beneficial to the economy in certain regions, in the tourism industry for example, if there were more francophone immigrants?

[Carol Jolin]

It would definitely be worth checking out. There are other circumstances, economic considerations for example, where there are needs. The entire infrastructure would benefit from programs like these.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Jolin and Ms. Martinez Ferrada.

We will now go to Mr. Beaulieu for six minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

On the one hand, Mr. Landry, you grasped the concept of "overcompleteness", meaning extreme overfunding. Mr. Frédéric Lacroix defined it as an overabundance of services, in areas like health or postsecondary education, in English, in Quebec.

You said that there was no "overcompleteness" for linguistic minorities, but that's certainly not the case for Quebec anglophones. For example, 45% of jobs in the health field in Montreal are in the anglophone network, whereas anglophones represent about 17% of Montreal's population. That's a very interesting point.

And what do you think about Quebec's language policy, which is based on the common language concept?

As you said earlier, it's very clear that English will become the common language for newcomers who settle anywhere other than Quebec, because they won't be able to function unless they speak English.

In fact, 99% of allophone language transfers are towards English in the rest of Canada and 40% of francophones whose mother tongue is French use mainly English at home. I therefore think that we need to address future action from this standpoint.

There has been an increase in language transfers towards French through the selection of "francotrope" immigrants. However, if we were successful in making French the common language in Montreal, we would probably succeed in counteracting the decline of French.

Do you think that if we were to make French the common language in regions other than Quebec where there is a critical mass of francophones, at least in federal institutions, it could be part of the solution?

[Rodrigue Landry]

I think it would be difficult to legislate this outside Quebec. Bill 101, as legislated in Quebec, is recognized worldwide. The three linguistic groups that have succeeded best in defending their minority language are the populations that speak Hebrew, a nearly dead language that became a state language, followed, on an equal footing, by the people of Catalonia and Quebec.

The concept of a common language is something I find very meaningful. I believe that it's section 59 that authorizes Quebec to disallow mother tongue as a criterion for becoming a rights holder for education. If this criterion had been applied, one can only guess that owing to the attraction of English, there would already be many francophones who would choose to send their children to an English language school because of what I call "social naïveté", meaning that they believe the best bilingualism program is 50-50.

In the United States, the education program based on the principle of dual immersion is the most highly rated in terms of bilingualism.x Spanish speakers spend 50% of their time studying in their own language and 50% in English, and English speakers do the same. It's a very good program, but if we were to try to apply it in a minority setting, it would amount to collective suicide.

Common language is a very useful concept for Quebec, one which allows Quebec to protect itself. In North America as a whole, the overall percentage of francophones is very low. Quebec therefore needs to become a bastion, and to defend itself.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Basically, there is a kind of battle going on. The Quebec government is trying to make French the common language, but the federal government advocates institutional bilingualism and an ever-expanding range of services in English.

That's why it's important to take stock at some point. I believe that we, the francophone and Acadian communities, would benefit from joining Quebeckers. I believe that the Official Languages Act has divided communities. At all official languages events, it's always anglophones who are invited to represent Quebec.

Following all the statements made in the throne speech, I believe that we ought to invite groups for the defence of French in Quebec to attend these meetings. This might eventually help to build solidarity. I believe that Quebec also has an important role to play in supporting the francophone and Acadian communities.

What do you think about this?

[Rodrigue Landry]

I like the "societal culture" concept. Two great societal cultures in Canada gave birth to two official languages. The point is simply that francophones outside Quebec share the same societal culture as Quebec and, reciprocally, that anglophones in Quebec share the same societal culture as anglophones in Canada.

It's here that we can make use of a concept that I probably don't have enough time to explain, and that is the concept of "cultural autonomy". New Brunswick is probably the best example of it with its duality concept, in which institutions belong to the groups. The more we can apply this concept, the better it will be for the minority groups.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Landry and Mr. Beaulieu.

Mr. Boulerice, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In my previous career, I worked for a union affiliated to theFTQ, the Fédération des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec. The FTQ''s programs placed a strong emphasis on respect for the French language at work. I was very happy about this. Afterwards, within the NDP, we always argued that the Charter of the French Language should also be applied, which was not the case for companies subject to federal regulation on sectors like telecommunications, air transport, and shipping.

The reform document shows a desire to defend the language rights of workers so that they can work in French and also communicate with their employer in French. It's a step in the right direction, and it's what we've been requesting for years.

The reform document also partly opens the door to companies subject to federal regulation outside Quebec, in communities or regions where there is—it's not clear yet—a high percentage of francophones.

Mr. Forgues, You spoke about indicators the last time I asked you some questions, and you began by pointing to the importance of the working language.

What's your view of what the reform document might have in store for us?

How important is it to make an effort to ensure the vitality and survival of a language in a specific region?

[Éric Forgues]

One aspect of the white paper that I liked was the desire to harmonize the federal linguistic framework with those of the provinces. In Quebec, for example, harmonization might be achieved by encouraging federal institutions to comply with the intent of Bill 101. Similar arrangements could then be made with the other provinces.

As can be seen with respect to language of work, there is a degree of anglicization in the workplace, even in Quebec. I can't remember the precise figures, but we could obtain them if required. I therefore think that a harmonization like this of the linguistic frameworks could help somewhat to improve the situation, or to create francophone spaces in workplaces.

The workplace does lend itself to assimilation because many francophones work in English. This can have an impact on the vitality of some communities

We have fewer options for taking action in the workplace, but wherever we have an opportunity to do so, we should. I am therefore in favour of initiatives like this.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

My first question will be for Mr. Forgues, and I'll address the other witnesses after that.

We haven't yet spoken about the role of the CBC with respect to minority language francophone groups. Is this neglect deliberate? Should this role be less important than it was before, now that the media environment for news and culture has changed so much because of new technologies?

Should we continue to rely heavily on regional news in French to hear what francophone communities outside Quebec have to say?

What, according to you, Mr. Forgues, is the role of this public broadcaster?

I'd also like to hear what Mr. Landry has to say about this.

[Éric Forgues]

I'm not a media expert, but the CBC certainly has an important role to play. However, the media environment is being utterly transformed because of a shift towards digital. It's also important to understand just how this shift will play out, and the role of the francophonie in this new ecosystem, particularly in social media, where a major transformation is underway.

I believe that we have a lot of catching up to do in terms of developing ideas. This too is something that is discussed in the white paper. It's being talked about, and people are aware of it. Minister Joly has been holding discussions about the digital transformation. It's important for francophones to be properly positioned for their own digital governance.

Mr. Sylvain St-Onge, a student of Mr. Rodrigue Landry, has just written a thesis on the issue of social media among young people. Young people spend an enormous amount of time on social networks. It's a place for socialization that is very important to them. It's important to assess the impact of this phenomenon and to identify the language in which people are browsing and communicating on social networks.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Forgues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I'm sorry to interrupt, Mr. Boulerice, But the bells are ringing. We need to decide on whether we have the consent of all the members. We have 15 minutes left. We could proceed to a final round, because the bells sound every 30 minutes.

If we have the unanimous consent of members, we could allow Mr. Boulerice to finish his intervention and go to the next 15 minutes. After that we could end the meeting to vote.

Are there any objections to continuing the meeting for the next 15 minutes? I don't see any.

As there are no objections, we'll continue to hear our witnesses.

You have a minute left, Mr. Boulerice.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Forgues, I have children and teenagers at home, and I can tell you that they spend a lot of time on social networks. It would be helpful if we had an overview of the societal impact of this phenomenon on what language is being used.

I'd like to return to Mr. Landry on the subject of working language.

Mr. Landry, What's your view on the importance of French at work?

[Rodrigue Landry]

It's very important. As I said earlier, the workplace is not just an institution. It's also a living environment. The workplace, for instance, has an influence on identity.

I have not conducted many workplace studies, but I have done a study for the federal government to determine the language in which public servants wanted to receive their training. I analysed their networks of contacts and looked at linguistic vitality indicators for the areas they came from. The percentage of public servants who wanted to receive their training in English was unbelievable. They said that because they spent most of their time working in English anyway, they might as well learn the vocabulary they would have to use.

The end result was disparaging their own language to succeed in the public service.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Landry.

Mr. Williamson, You have the floor for five minutes.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Good afternoon and thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Landry, you mentioned New Brunswick and its duality system.

Can you explain why this works in New Brunswick and how a system like this could improve the situation for minority communities elsewhere in Canada?

[Rodrigue Landry]

My view is that duality is an example of cultural autonomy. Autonomy does not mean separation, but the power to handle one's own affairs. New Brunswick duality system recognizes that both communities are culturally autonomous. Each administers its own institutions.

I don't think we can expect a population that has only 5% francophones would have the same duality experience as New Brunswick, where 70% to 74% of the population live in regions where francophones are in the majority. That's probably a factor that explains why the system works in New Brunswick.

I believe that the concept is a good one. It has been shown repeatedly that bilingual institutions don't work. In 1963, for example, if we had followed the bilingual model of the University of Ottawa when Université de Moncton was established, the latter would not have contributed as much to the vitality of the minority. That's why I don't believe it all in bilingual systems.

Cultural autonomy needs to be adapted to the vitality of each community. I believe that's the best option.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

I agree entirely.

The University of New Brunswick in Fredericton is a completely Anglophone institution. Université de Moncton functions very well today because it's priority is the French language.

Mr. Forgues, do you have any comments to make on the New Brunswick duality concept? How might it help us elsewhere in Canada?

[Éric Forgues]

My comments are generally in line with what Mr. Landry said.

The more a linguistic group has its own institutions, the better it is for the community. French-language living environments are also essential. The more of these there are, the more people will tend to express themselves in their language. Otherwise, they are condemned to using the language of the majority.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

That's my experience as well.

I have a B.A. from McGill University in Montreal, an English-language educational institution. Right beside it is Université du Québec à Montréal, or UQAM, and other francophone campuses. The anglophones who studied at UQAM speak better French than I do. Likewise, francophones who attended McGill University are now more bilingual.

We can see how it works for both communities.

I'd like to thank the witnesses.

I have no further questions, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Williamson.

Over to you, Mr. Duguid, for five minutes.

Terry Duguid, the floor is yours.

[Terry Duguid, Liberal, Winnipeg South, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll be sharing my time with Mr. Arseneault.

Thank you to our witnesses.

I have one question for Mr. Landry.

Mr. Landry, I'm from Manitoba in western Canada. It's interesting. Even within western Canada you see regional differences with regard to the decline of French. In Alberta and the northern territories, it appears to be increasing, in some cases very rapidly, but in Manitoba and Saskatchewan, it's declining. As you know, in Manitoba we have a very tight and geographically focused community in Saint Boniface and some of our southern Manitoba communities.

I wonder if you could reflect on and give us some picture of what's going on in western Canada with respect to the vitality of French. Perhaps you could use your framework of the various actors, community, family, civil society, government. If we understand what the problem is, hopefully we can develop solutions.

[Rodrigue Landry]

In western Canada there may be a few exceptions, but generally the problem is dispersion of small communities. I remember testing in Saskatchewan and travelling for three days just to test about seven or eight students in each school. Saskatchewan is a good example of dispersion.

What's missing there for the first actors, the parents and the family, is that they don't have social proximity to institutions, to other francophones, so it's a major challenge on that side.

The second component is the institutional completeness. That's also dictated by numbers.

The third factor is the state legitimizing the language. In that case, governments could be more generous in legitimizing the language, giving them access to communities.

I have testified a few times in court cases in western Canada. They build small schools. They quickly outgrow the schools. There's a lack of vision. You might remember the last court case in B.C. that went to the Supreme Court. The judge herself said it's true that we don't give the francophones what they need, but they are going to assimilate just the same. We should not invest too much.

With those kinds of attitudes, we have problems.