Official Languages Committee on March 30th, 2022

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

The Commissioner of Official Languages is appearing here today in connection with the study on francophone immigration.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Théberge. You answered the question. It's an important point, given that immigration is included in Bill C-13. Thank you very much for making sure that it will be possible to start the study as quickly as possible.

I'd like to return briefly to your recommendations on immigration, including the role of the provinces. You spoke earlier about the shared provincial and federal responsibilities. Ontario, for example has a program under which over 8,000 applicants are designated each year.

Do you have any specific recommendations to make? Are you working closely with the provinces?

As for the federal role, what recommendations do you think we should make to ensure that the provinces also contribute to increasing francophone immigration?

[Raymond Théberge]

We don't work with the provinces on immigration. That's an area of shared jurisdiction. That being the case, it's important that when figures are established for various categories, the provinces should be aware of their communities' needs. It's also important for the federal government to ask the right questions about the needs of these communities.

I feel that it's part of a proactive and differentiated approach that gives due regard to positive measures and allows us to work towards genuine equality. Of course, we are in a federated country. We know the areas of jurisdiction, but it's still important for the various levels of government to work together.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you.

Similarly, with respect to the positive measures and a proactive approach, Ms. Ashton asked earlier about the shortage of teachers. Some representatives from national associations told us that this was really important.

Have you worked with the provincial associations on education and early childhood? Do you have recommendations to make about how to address the shortage of francophone teachers?

[Raymond Théberge]

In a 2019 study, we took stock of the shortage of French as a second language teachers, and teachers whose mother tongue is French. This area does in fact affect the education continuum. We naturally discussed this shortage with people from several associations. At the time, we asked for coordination—which in passing did occur—to ensure that funds would be spent in various areas, including faculties of education.

It might also be worthwhile to find a way to recruit teachers and education staff from other countries and to help them adapt to Canada's cultural context. That's extremely important. As a former dean of a faculty of education, I can tell you that there is a pedagogical culture in our classrooms in Canada. Newcomers therefore need to be allowed to adapt to this culture. It's important to find as many ways as possible, because there is a glaring shortage of French-speaking education staff across the country.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you very much.

As I only have 15 seconds left, I'd like to ask you to send the study committee any analyses or recommendations you may have been able to come up with on host organizations across Canada, which are funded by IRCC. I'd also like to know whether you have any recommendations to make about the amounts to be allocated to francophone organizations.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Serré.

I need to keep close track of the time, because we have to move on to committee work.

Mr. Beaulieu, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Commissioner,^x Mr. Handfield, who appeared before the committee, had a lot of trouble dealing with IRCC in Montreal. He had been told not to use French, even though it was a request from his client. He also underscored the fact that many of his clients tried to deal with immigration staff in French, but received answers in English.

Can you investigate that?

Previously, very little work was done on behalf of French in Quebec. That was because of the status of the two minorities.

Would Bill C-13 enable you to more readily investigate this situation in Quebec?

[Raymond Théberge]

The commissioner has the power to investigate and to initiate his own investigations.

We discussed this situation at considerable length. The staff at immigration offices in Montreal is heavily anglophone, and that's of great concern to me.

In my view, it's up to IRCC to look into the matter and find ways to deal with it as quickly as possible. It's unacceptable for people not to be able receive assistance in the official language of their choice, particularly in a region that is designated bilingual.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Mr. Handfield^x told us that the situation was not improving, but getting worse. IRCC does not appear to be able to investigate its own operations. We repeatedly questioned representatives of the department, but they didn't have any answers. We didn't know why the department was unable to meet its francophone immigration targets for more than 20 years. This is not very promising.

Would you be able to examine internal operations at IRCC to find the cause of the problem?

[Raymond Théberge]

You mentioned IRCC, but are you talking about one particular area?

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I'm talking about IRCC, but also about the immigration offices in Montreal. I'm talking about the fact that officers approve temporary resident permits while largely refusing study permit applications from people in African countries.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu.

Ms. Ashton, it's over to you now for two and half minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question for the commissioner is once again on the issue of francization services.

Do you think that the federal government is doing enough for francization?

Here at the committee, we've heard that online courses were available, but only in one official language. Immigrants who settle outside Quebec almost always choose English.

Should courses be available in both languages, at least in regions where there is a high proportion of francophones?

[Raymond Théberge]

Canada has two official languages. At the Canadian citizenship ceremony, the country's linguistic duality and its two official languages are acknowledged.

If we want to receive immigrants in the official language of their choice and give them a real choice, it's important, and even essential, to give them access to language training in the language of their choice.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Bill C-13 recommends that the government should set a francophone immigration target, but gives no further details.

Do you think there ought to be some guidelines for these targets?

Should we aim at returning the demographic weight of francophones in Canada to its 2001 level, the year when targets began to be introduced?

[Raymond Théberge]

Not only should we be aiming at a 4.4% target for francophone immigration, but increase it if we want to be more ambitious. That would mean aiming at expanding rather than just maintaining a level. It's clear that the 4.4% target is a minimum, not a maximum. In an immigration action plan, it's important to set an ambitious target.

And if we want to reach this target, we have to acknowledge that we need to come up with the tools and resources required. The past is not necessarily a good yardstick, particularly if it shows that we haven't met the target.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you once again for your testimony, Mr. Théberge.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Ashton.

Given the time, the next questions will be asked by Mr. Gourde and Mr. Iacono, each of whom will have three and a half minutes.

Mr. Gourde, you have the floor for three and a half minutes.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Gourde is absent. If it's all right with you, Mr. Chair, I'll take his place.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Go ahead, Mr. Généreux.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I am delighted to see you, Commissioner. It's very good of you to be here with us today.

How would you define a community with a strong francophone presence in Canada? How many people would that be?

[Raymond Théberge]

I look at the situation in terms of the ethnolinguistic vitality concept.

What makes a community? A community is a set of individuals, institutions and shared cultural values.

Across Canada, communities have provided themselves with institutions and live in French, want services in French and want to continue to flourish in French.

For me, a francophone community is a community that self-identifies as francophone and provides itself with the means required to live in French in that community. My definition is not based on numbers. A community's vitality needs to be measured in terms of its institutional networks, culture, education services, and so on.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

In view of what you've just said, do you intend to send the government a list of places that you yourself consider to be francophone communities in Canada?

[Raymond Théberge]

We've never been asked to provide anything like that, and it has never been our intention to supply that kind of information.