Official Languages Committee on Oct. 4th, 2022

[Alexandre Cédric Doucet]

The fact remains that an act is just an act. They're just words on paper. Whether there is the political will to implement it is another question. Nevertheless, Bill C‑13 provides for some very worthwhile mechanisms that may have an impact on the ground in New Brunswick.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

You spoke of francophone immigration to New Brunswick and of setting related targets through regulation. What would these targets be?

[Alexandre Cédric Doucet]

The objectives should be set through regulation; you'll understand our position on the subject, Mr. Beaulieu.

New Brunswick is the only province other than Quebec that has linguistic specificity. Our position on immigration has always been very clear. It's not just a question of targets or standards, it's also a question of autonomy.

We believe the government of New Brunswick should have greater autonomy to choose its immigrants, which would allow it to restore balance in the demographic weights of its two official language communities. That would be an excellent way to combat the decline of French in New Brunswick.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

My next question is for the Réseau pour le développement de l'alphabétisme et des compétences.

You spoke at length about non-formal learning and about how it can improve literacy. I'm trying to imagine how that might be structured. How would we go about assessing these kinds of learning, in practical terms? Are you thinking of informal training sessions with tailored exams?

[Mona Audet]

It is certain that the Réseau has done some work and has come up with something that is really well thought out. We're going to have to develop ways of thinking, as well as tools for evaluating skills that can be discovered in non-formal and informal training, such as reading.

Certainly, the Réseau will set up evaluations, for which the centre of expertise that we want to establish will be responsible. Our aim is to be able to correctly assess, but above all to target, what people learn in a given context. The issue of non-formal, formal and informal learning concerns all the community organizations that offer non-formal learning, such as institutions, legal organizations or organizations that support women, for example.

The Réseau could have decided to talk only about literacy, but we decided to show that non-formal learning was more important for the citizens of Canada. That's what we based ourselves on, and we really want to recognize all the non-formal training of citizens.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you very much, Ms. Audet and Mr. Beaulieu.

We'll move on to the next round of questions.

Ms. Ashton, you have six minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses who are here today.

We would like to see this study of Bill C‑13 move forward as quickly as possible. However, we feel that this is a historic moment and that we must not miss this opportunity to improve the bill for the benefit of all communities in the country. We hope that the government will accept the main amendments that we have been proposing for months, to finally improve the lives of communities on the ground.

Ms. Audet, we have often talked about the importance of protecting the education continuum, from early childhood to post-secondary education. In my opinion, the observation you made is relevant: this education must also include adult education. This is something that the committee has acknowledged, but that the act does not yet recognize.

You propose to remedy this situation with a fairly simple but important amendment. Can you further explain the importance of using the language you suggest, rather than the language recommended by the committee in 2018, which emphasizes the integration of the education continuum?

[Mona Audet]

When we talk about learning from early childhood to post-secondary education, we always forget about non-formal and informal training, which nevertheless helps complete the education continuum.

We are part of the Table nationale sur l'éducation with various partners, such as the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne and various organizations representing schools and universities. We looked at this area of learning and came to a consensus: we need to change today's education so that it will be more inclusive in the future. We need to think about our grandchildren.

For example, it should be recognized that during judo training, children acquire skills and knowledge that will serve them throughout their lives. We therefore propose that the three types of training—formal, informal and non-formal—are an integral part of learning in Canada. This is being done elsewhere. South Africa, New Zealand, UNESCO and the OECD, among others, have already considered this principle, as has the Council of Ministers of Education.

In conclusion, we want lifelong learning to become an integral part of learning for all citizens.

I hope that I have answered the question correctly, but my colleague Mr. Desgagné could certainly give you a better answer, since he sits on the Table nationale sur l'éducation.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

That won't be necessary. I think your message was clear. Thank you.

Mr. Doucet, we know how important the issue of immigration is. Yet Bill C‑13 does not contain targets for catching up demographically, an issue that we know is important for francophone minority communities.

You have pointed out in the past that the 4.4% target for francophone immigration from outside Quebec would be detrimental to New Brunswick if it were applied consistently. However, we know that even this target has never been met. We believe that Bill C‑13 does not go far enough and that it must contain a demographic catch‑up clause.

Do you agree with that and do you believe that these province-specific details should also be included in the Official Languages Act?

[Alexandre Cédric Doucet]

I have a mandate to speak on behalf of the Acadian and francophone community. I can tell you that Bill C‑13 may not go far enough in this regard, generally speaking.

As you may know, immigration is a shared jurisdiction under section 95 of the Constitution Act, 1867. In the late 1970s, Quebec signed an agreement with the federal government to have greater powers in immigration, and we believe that New Brunswick should sign a similar agreement.

For the Acadians of New Brunswick, the issue of immigration is somewhat beyond the scope of Bill C‑13, as we believe it is incumbent upon the province of New Brunswick to play a greater role in federal-provincial negotiations.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Doucet.

Mr. Chaisson, do you think we should amend the act to give more power to Treasury Board to really manage the implementation of the act and to protect and promote the rights of francophones across the country?

[Ali Chaisson, Executive Director, Acadian Society of New Brunswick]

I find that my opinion on this provision remains constant: I am ambivalent about who should ultimately be responsible. As well, I think there has been a long-standing lack of imagination. I don't think it's necessarily the way the law is written that prevents people from doing things differently.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you.

We will now proceed to another round of questions.

Mr. Gourde, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also thank the witnesses for being here.

Mr. Doucet, the Commissioner of Official Languages insists on the importance of a central agency. Could you clarify your position on this issue?

[Alexandre Cédric Doucet]

From a legislative standpoint, this is probably the best proposal there is at this time.

I myself am not a public administration expert. However, when we consult such experts, particularly those who have previously worked for the Treasury Board, they say that this organization does not really deal with these issues and that it is more like a soccer goalie when it comes to programs.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Doucet.

Ms. Audet, Quebec is asking that we amend Bill C‑13 to recognize its specificity. Indeed, the linguistic context in Quebec is particular, because the province is francophone.

Are you in favour of such an amendment?

[Mona Audet]

Mr. Desgagné, I would ask for your help to answer that question.

[Denis Desgagné, Executive Director, Réseau pour le développement de l'alphabétisme et des compétences]

RESDAC works with the FCFA and Quebec on these issues. We really specialize in the Canadian francophonie. We have a vested interest in the francophonie in Quebec, in its vitality.

I think that Quebeckers are in the best position to talk about their destiny, and it is in our interest to be associated with them. We have been involved in the whole process undertaken by the FCFA over the last five or six years. So we are fully supportive of the FCFA's positions.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Can you tell me about the francophone immigration targets that the government has put in place outside Quebec and in Quebec?

What help can you provide in that regard?

When immigrants arrive in Canada, they may not speak English or French. An integration process is necessary. It might be beneficial for Quebec to get help.

[Denis Desgagné]

I absolutely agree with that.

RESDAC works in the immigration network. As our president mentioned, we work in the field of skills. We try to collaborate with Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, or IRCC, given our areas of expertise. Ms. Audet works directly with several newcomers to Manitoba. I could give you many examples of that.

Again, the FCFA has done its work and RESDAC has been involved in immigration initiatives. We need to play catch‑up, we need to review the targets, and we really need to be able to achieve our goals together. It certainly is a collaborative effort. We are part of this process and we have an important role to play in terms of skills to ensure our success.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

There is a unique situation in Canada right now. There is a major labour shortage in Quebec. There are 250,000 jobs available and they are good jobs. However, English Canada seems to shun Quebec. Yet, Quebec has made a lot of effort to recruit people from the new generation of 40 and under. Many citizens from other provinces speak French. They are francophiles, not francophones. It was quite an experience for them, because the unemployment rate is much higher in the western provinces than in Quebec.

We would be willing to recruit English-speaking Canadians to come and work in Quebec. The search for labour is going on all over the world. It seems to me that there would be a small effort to make in this area.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Gourde, you have one minute left.

[Denis Desgagné]

I will answer very quickly.

The labour shortage has taken hold throughout Canada. The Canadian francophonie is also suffering from these shortages. We may be shunned by our provinces. If there were language clauses that would make this fine mechanism work, the Canadian francophonie could work with its governments to welcome people. We often welcome immigrants who arrive in Quebec and then move to our regions. In one way or another, our destiny is linked, Mr. Gourde.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Gourde.

Mr. Drouin, you have the floor for five minutes.