Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 21st, 2007

[Commr Beverley Busson]

My understanding is that there were controls in place and that the managers went around those controls.

I would ask Mr. Gauvin to talk a little bit about the controls in 2003, if I could.

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

Mr. Chairman, again, the RCMP is responsible for around $4 billion right now. That's the total budget. We have 26,000 employees across the country. For this particular unit, there was a unit within HR called “National Compensation”, which was responsible for this particular activity. What happens is, as in any other organization, there are delegations of authority. So these people were delegated authority to run this program.

As the Auditor General mentioned, it was not a question of not having the controls; it was a question of people going around the controls. So as soon as the allegations came, we asked for an internal audit. Internal audits are done on a regular basis, but you can't audit everything the same year. So it would have come out. Unfortunately, it took a little while before this was totally identified. The internal audit was done and this was identified. But as soon as it was, action was taken to make sure that it wouldn't happen again.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Okay. Can you assure us that it's not going to happen again?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

I can assure you, and the Auditor General has said that. On top of this, we have added a number of additional controls.

In an organization of 26,000 people, we cannot assure that somebody at a point in time will not decide to circumvent controls, but I can assure you that in time they will be caught.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Williams.

Mr. Christopherson, you have five minutes.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have to say that the circumstances keep mounting up, and I have no problems or qualms with the answers you've given, but I get a sense there's a whole other side to this thing. We start adding up things like the lack of the appearance of independence--notwithstanding what you said, Chief. I accept that at face value, but nonetheless you did acknowledge that it doesn't look very good. That was the first step.

The timing of cancelling the criminal investigation and moving to an internal investigation.... While I take the word of those who have given submissions to this point that that was done for good reasons, I can't escape the fact that at the end of the day it would have been very helpful if.... The real question we're asking here is whether there has been a cover-up. Nobody has called it that, but that's really what's in front of us. Was there a cover-up?

The actions themselves, as is true in most cases like this, can be dealt with one way. Once we start getting into issues of covering up, we're into a whole other thing. So the real issue in front of us here is, was there any attempt anywhere within the senior ranks of the RCMP, with or without the inclusion of the Ottawa Police Service, to cover this up in any way?

I look at that, and I look at the fact that the statute of limitations.... There's a part of me that says the Commissioner of the RCMP wouldn't make a decision like that without a legal person right beside him asking him what the unintended consequences would be here, what he needed to know. As one piece, it's not the whole thing, but it's yet another piece.

The initial whistle-blower has been reassigned, and my understanding is that was not something they wanted. They feel they've been treated very badly here.

As for the work of no value, we all know what happened the last time we started down that road. That's very troublesome, and again I'm having some difficulty. It's a legal matter between administrative and criminal, but boy, once you start hiring relatives and friends, and once you start arranging for work that doesn't need to be done, you've got to be getting awfully close to criminal intent. I'm just a layperson with a very poor formal education, but it seems to me that if you're not across that line, you've got to be snuggling up pretty close to it by then.

Then there is this whole business of Mr. Frizzell's being physically removed. Again, that's another piece. Then how many resignations, reassignments, health issues...? I headed into this open-minded, and again, if I had problems with your answers you'd know about it by now, but I still have this sense that there's more to this story.

If it was not the RCMP in particular--and part of this may be just my own background as Solicitor General responsible for police, and proud of it, and proud of the women and men I was responsible for--then it seems to me that you'd have to be held to the highest account that Mr. Williams was referring to, the squeaky clean, because it's the police.

I say openly that if it were another matter and this were circumstantial, I might still be persuaded that we could end it here and write a report, especially since the Auditor General feels that they have responded, at least from that point of view. However, given that it's the RCMP, and that it is absolutely critical that people have faith in the RCMP, and that the RCMP live up to their reputation, and that we not damage that, I'm going to be very open to a motion, at the appropriate time, to take a second round and bring in some people to see what the other side is. Then we'll match up the two and see where we are.

I don't have any further questions. I'll afford you a chance to comment on my remarks, but at this point, Chair, it's my intent that if Mr. Wrzesnewskyj presents a motion that has us take a second round, I'm supportive.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Christopherson.

Do any of the witnesses want to make any response to Mr. Christopherson's statements?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

I'd respectfully like to make a response around that.

In my opening comments I spoke about four reviews, and each one of those reviews was not pretty. The findings of those reviews were less than anything anybody, from a constable to a commissioner of the RCMP, would be very proud of in the way those things were dealt with. I also agree with you that at the end of the day, the perception of what we call an arm's-length investigation may be out there in the minds of certain people.

We, in the RCMP and in other police forces across Canada, see a double-edged sword in the amount of trust that people see in the RCMP and other police forces. And often we investigate each other believing that people will trust us to do the right thing because we do live by a very high ethical code. I accept the fact that the perception of that might be very difficult for certain people, but that is the world we live in. We have to be aware of the fact that this trust is both precious and not cemented in stone, that we have to work very hard to move through that.

In the four reviews there were a number of things that were uncovered and shown to be, if not malfeasance, then misfeasance. As I said before, there's nobody in this organization who wants to defend any of what happened in that unfortunate part of time. The work that we've done afterwards, I believe, has been transparent. At the end of the day, the organization has done everything it can to give whatever assurances it can, beyond a total naïveté that nobody ever does anything wrong in this world after the first time.

We will work to make sure that this will never happen again. I agree with you that the RCMP does need to live up to a higher standard, and we strive to do that at every stance.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Christopherson.

Thank you, Ms. Busson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

The chief wants a shot, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I'm sorry. Go ahead.

[Chief Vince Bevan]

If there is a concern that somehow Staff Sergeant Mike Frizzell was silenced by whatever happened, I can assure you that he wrote a key part of the final report that was submitted. He led the contracts portion of the investigation. The contracts portion of the investigation was that part that was scrutinized by the forensic auditor. So his report was included, given to me, and that was part of the information that was tabled with the RCMP commissioner at the time. I just want to add that, if there is concern that he was somehow muzzled.

Certainly there was no cover-up through any of this. And I can tell you that where the evidence has taken us...previously where we have done criminal investigations of members of the RCMP, criminal charges have been laid where that's appropriate. In this particular case, we consulted with the crown attorney. We had the benefit of an independent forensic audit and the conduct did not meet the threshold.

Regardless, all of the acts, anything related to mismanagement, all of the things we've talked about here today were fully documented and included in the report that both the Auditor General and the RCMP have had access to.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Chief Bevan.

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj for five minutes.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Aiken, have you seen any audits with as many red flags as that one before you?

[Brian Aiken]

As I reported in this audit, there were significant issues that I reported on to the commissioner, who acted upon them appropriately and immediately. A follow-up audit was performed in May 2004, where we confirmed that all of the management action plans had been implemented as identified in the internal audit. So we were quite satisfied with management's response.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

But my question is this. Have you ever seen an internal audit with as many red flags as this particular one?

[Brian Aiken]

I've seen a number of internal audits, but I couldn't recall whether there were more or less. My focus here was to ensure that we'd identified those issues and I'd reported this to the commissioner.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Why use that terminology? I understand that at one point that's the wording you had used.

Mr. Aiken, what can you tell us about Commissioner Zaccardelli cancelling the criminal investigation?

[Brian Aiken]

I am not aware of why he cancelled the criminal investigation. My responsibility was to respond to a request from him to audit the various problems that were identified in a letter that we received on June 17. That formed the basis of how we developed the internal audit, and we audited from that point on.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I understand that there was more than enough evidence on June 17, 2003, before the audit was initiated, to go to an investigation. In your role as the corporate conscience of the organization, you did not immediately report the abuse to appropriate authorities. Treasury Board policy on internal audit responsibility with respect to fraud and abuse in the government stipulates that failure to report incidents of fraud and abuse may implicate the audit group in wrongdoings.

[Brian Aiken]

On June 17 I received a list of allegations. We performed our internal audit. In October I reported to the commissioner, and at the same time I reported the same facts to the Auditor General of Canada, the Treasury Board of Canada, and the Office of the Comptroller General. All central agencies were informed of the results of my audit at that time, as per requirements.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Aiken, I understand that in June of 2005 the commissioner announced that the results of the criminal investigation corroborated the findings of the internal audit, and the issues raised were of an administrative rather than a criminal nature.

I also understand that you and Mr. Sylvain Michaud, the senior auditor responsible for the pension insurance wrongdoings, were both promoted to EX-3 and EX-2 respectively almost immediately following the release of the criminal investigation report. Is that correct?

[Brian Aiken]

I was promoted as a result of a competition held with the Public Service Commission.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Immediately after that audit came out.

[Brian Aiken]

I am not aware of the timelines at all.