Evidence of meeting #41 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funds.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I get a briefing note about it. I'm not necessarily part of the decision-making process for any number of things that happen across the vast RCMP. I'm not happy to say it's not a once-in-a-lifetime occurrence.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
It has to be worrisome for you.
In your opening remarks you say there are four independent reviews happening about this one specific circumstance we're dealing with right now. You must wonder what you've walked into.
4:45 p.m.
Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I'm very interested in how all of this has transpired.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
I'm a little concerned that you said the RCMP pension plan was never at risk. What did you mean by that?
4:45 p.m.
Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
The money was never appropriated out of the fund to a point where the members of the RCMP would lose their benefits.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
As the public accounts committee, we're concerned that although their pension plan wasn't at risk—and I'm glad of that—certainly the taxpayers' money was at risk through all of this.
On page 13 of the Auditor General's original report there is an exhibit 9.1, and there are four different circumstances. One of them is on the casual staff who were hired and the nepotism that was involved. But there is case after case of work that was done for very little value. One of my colleagues said that was exactly what began the whole sponsorship scandal. Money was hidden or transferred through invoices for work of very little value.
Did you find, Chief, any evidence in these cases where there was little value for work for which money was paid?
4:50 p.m.
Chief, Ottawa Police Service
In our report we identified all of the incidents like that where we found there were problems. We divided the investigation into three streams. One of those streams focused on exactly that: where people were hired contrary to the rules and it was of questionable value. That was included in the report and brought to the attention of the RCMP.
February 21st, 2007 / 4:50 p.m.
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
Under section 9.13 in chapter 9 of the Auditor General's report, it is written that $3.1 million was inappropriately charged to the pension plan. A little earlier, we were told that part of the money had been reimbursed. That amounted to $759,000. Apparently, that would leave a balance of $373,781. But that does not add up, a lot of money is still missing.
When will you reimburse the total amount? How come that has not yet been done? What was the exact amount that had been improperly charged?
4:50 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Mr. Chairman, we are talking about two different amounts: the first represents expenses that had been improperly charged to the pension plan.
4:50 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
In her report, the Auditor General indicates an amount of $3.4 million. Following the internal audit, we reviewed all expenses of over $50,000. When we found expenses that should not have been charged to the pension plan, we asked that they be reimbursed. The expenses were charged to the allocation of funds, because they are more directly related to human resources, and not the pension plan. Everything was taken care of.
4:50 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
That is correct. Now there is another amount. There are expenditures that were charged for work of little or no value. All of that amount has been reimbursed, except—
4:50 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
It is $1.3 million.
4:50 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
That amount was reimbursed, except for approximately $340,000 in fees paid to advisors and consultants hired by Consulting and Audit Canada. There is a 15% charge for that work.
4:50 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
We are still discussing with Public Works and Government Services Canada to see whether others will reimburse them.
4:50 p.m.
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
Did the RCMP's accounting apparatus take that money from the pension plan?
4:50 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
No, those were expenses incurred by public servants while carrying out the outsourcing initiative. They paid Public Works and Government Services Canada for consultants, who received 15% of contract costs for their work.
4:50 p.m.
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
The pension plan was set up for workers or, in this case, RCMP officers. Are they not entitled to that money?
4:50 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes.
