Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 21st, 2007

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Gauvin, you made an admission of people going around the controls that were put in place, and you actually stated, and I noted down, that “action was taken”.

The action appears to have been, in Mr. Crupi's case—Mr. Crupi, St. Andrew's golf course, and Mr. Crupi, stepdaughter, niece—18 months of paid leave. He's now on pension; he got bonus pay. So it appears that people who are going around the controls did not suffer any consequences, had full bonuses paid to them, and paid leave under suspension until their pensions kicked in. Then we end up with the original whistle-blower, her supervisor, and Mr. Frizzell all removed from their positions in what appear to be punitive ways.

I look at this and I shake my head. Moneys have not been repaid into the RCMP officers' pension fund. There hasn't been full compensation into the pension fund. There has been a great deal of suffering by a number of the individuals, who had the courage to step forward when they saw top officials within the RCMP abuse rank-and-file officers' pension funds. It appears that none of these issues has been addressed. I think what we'd like to see is all those funds reinstated, and those individuals should have an opportunity to come before the committee and be questioned in a respectful way, so that hopefully we can clear the air here and once again look at the RCMP without doubt and with respect.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

Any comment?

Mr. Gauvin. Anyone else?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

I'm not sure what the final question was, but I do want to clear up what was reimbursed to the pension fund.

What I replied to Mr. Nadeau earlier is that all expenses to the pension fund that should not have been charged there have been either reversed or reimbursed, except for $350,000 that was paid to Consulting and Audit Canada. On that one, I replied to Mr. Nadeau that we are still negotiating with Public Works on that particular amount. All other funds have now been reimbursed, and there is still $350,000 outstanding.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

The final member is Mr. Fitzpatrick. You have five minutes.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I want to start off with a comment, an observation. I know that you're new to the job, Commissioner. But I want to say that we see a lot of witnesses before this committee. This is a difficult task, I think, appearing before this committee, with the circumstance you have. I think you've been a straight shooter, a professional person, and from what I can see, a very confident person. I know you weren't the commissioner when these things took place, but I believe that leadership starts at the top and works its way down, and I have a good feeling about your leading the RCMP.

The area I'd like to pursue.... Is the pension plan a defined benefit program?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

Yes, it is. It's part of our full compensation package.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

So that means that the RCMP members, depending on the years of service, are guaranteed a certain amount upon their retirement.

[Commr Beverley Busson]

That's correct.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

If by chance the fund is short in money under that kind of plan, then it's incumbent upon the employer to fill the gap. Is that correct?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

I wouldn't venture into that territory. I will defer to--

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Is there somebody who can explain that? As I understand, that's what has to happen.

[Phil Charko]

As a defined benefit plan, this plan is a statute of the Government of Canada, so the requirement to pay the benefit is based on the law itself, on the act itself.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Right, but hopefully the contributions that are made by the members and the investments that take place will sustain the program, and you won't have to go back for an appropriation to Parliament to handle any shortfalls. That would be my understanding.

[Phil Charko]

There are no appropriations per se to fund the plan. Maybe I could just take two minutes to say that.... It's a little complicated. Prior to 2000, there were no funds, no particular funds themselves.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Right.

[Phil Charko]

Post-2000 is when the market investments started.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Okay. This is the area I really want to pursue, which I found rather strange. We have $10 billion in here. The Ontario teachers' pension plan, provincial pension systems, and lots of big private corporations and so on have these kinds of programs in place. And jeepers, if I were an employee in an organization, I'd feel very comfortable if the organization had, at arm's length, professional people, who were well respected in the industry, managing these funds to get the best return for the members at the lowest cost.

I'm getting the impression that this was kind of a do-it-yourself operation within the RCMP for a period of time, which if I were a member of the RCMP would be very troubling to me. Do I have something wrong here?

[Phil Charko]

Yes, actually, I think you're missing two points. One is that the actual funds themselves, the employer and employee contributions, are now being invested by a corporation, a crown corporation, called the Public Sector Pension Investment Board. This is independent and at arm's length from the government.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Is that new?

[Phil Charko]

That's since April 2000.

So since April 2000, the actual funds have been invested professionally by this crown corporation. The organization that is at issue here was responsible for the administration of the plan--the entitlement calculation and those types of administrative aspects of the plan itself, ensuring that plan members got the benefits on a timely basis and that the benefits were calculated correctly, and so on. That is what has now been outsourced to Morneau Sobeco.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I think it's a good step to outsource as much of this as possible. Then we wouldn't be having these hearings that we're having.

I think Mr. Poilievre has a question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Poilievre, do you have a question? You have one minute, Mr. Poilievre.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Chief Bevan, thank you very much for being with us today, and thank you for your good work on behalf of the residents of the city of Ottawa.

The Auditor General pointed to the fact that you reported to the Assistant Commissioner of the RCMP. Can you describe that relationship? For example, were you taking orders on how your investigation would be conducted from the assistant commissioner, or were you directing your own affairs independently and then informing the assistant commissioner of your findings?

[Chief Vince Bevan]

Thank you for the question, sir.

Actually, we did not inform the assistant commissioner of the operational needs. The assistant commissioner was in place to liaise, to make sure we got the documents we needed out of the RCMP and other government agencies.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

You didn't take orders from them?