Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 21st, 2007

[Chief Vince Bevan]

At no time did I or Inspector Roy, my delegate, take any orders from Assistant Commissioner Gork. In fact, the final report was not tabled with Assistant Commissioner Gork. I took that directly to the commissioner.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Did you take that report to the Crown as well for consideration of prosecution?

[Chief Vince Bevan]

The Crown looked at all of the details of the case—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Including the report?

[Chief Vince Bevan]

—including the report. There were at least 10 meetings with the crown attorney during the investigation, at all stages of the investigation.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Right.

[Chief Vince Bevan]

So they were thoroughly advised and actually had the opportunity to ask their own questions so that we could make sure we were very thorough in the follow-up they required, so that we had the answers they were looking for.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

These are two important things to have on the record: one, that you did not take orders in any way, shape, or form from the Assistant Commissioner of the RCMP, so your investigation was independent; and secondly, that the decision not to proceed with prosecutions was not your decision, but it was the decision of the Crown, who reviewed the facts independent of you. Is that correct?

[Chief Vince Bevan]

In fairness, it was a joint decision. The crown attorney decided that there was not a reasonable prospect of conviction, and for that reason we did not lay the charges.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Poilievre and Chief Bevan.

That, colleagues, witnesses, and members of the public, concludes the examinations. Of course, where we go from here is entirely up to the committee.

Before I conclude, do you have any closing remarks, Mr. McRoberts?

[Hugh McRoberts]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Very briefly, again, as we indicated in our report, we believe the initial response of the RCMP to the matters raised was an adequate response. With respect to the remaining ones, they committed at the time of making the report to dealing with them, and we are pleased at the reaffirmation of that commitment that we've heard from the commissioner today.

I would like to draw one other matter to the committee's attention. In responding to Madame Brunelle's question, I indicated that, over and above controls, the issue of management override is really a values issue. I would like to draw the committee's attention to another chapter that appeared in the same report and is, in a sense, a companion piece to this one. That is chapter 4, which deals with proper conduct of public business in the public safety portfolio, and it looks at, among other things, matters of values and ethics in the Border Services Agency, the corrections service, and the RCMP, and which I believe may be of assistance, at least in part, to the members in considering this matter.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. McRoberts.

Do you have any brief closing comments, Commissioner?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

No. Thank you very much. I appreciate the time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

On behalf of all members of the committee, I do want to thank you very much for your appearance here today and for answering the questions.

For you, Commissioner, I understand you are new in the job. Although this report, I think it's fair to say, is disturbing to the members of Parliament and it's somewhat troubling, I don't think it diminishes in any way the pride that we all have for the thousands and thousands of members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police who work for Canadians each and every day. I'm sure you are proud to lead the force, and you're new in the job, so I, on behalf of all members of Parliament, want to wish you all the best as you continue in your new role.

[Commr Beverley Busson]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

We are going to have some other committee business here. The witnesses are excused. Again, I want to thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I would like to reconvene the meeting for another two or three minutes.

There are three things I'd like to deal with.

The first item, colleagues, is the minutes of the steering committee, which was held on Monday, and they've been circulated. There's one thing I want to add. The minutes talked about a meeting. We couldn't contact André Gladu. Since the minutes were prepared, we have contacted him and we have scheduled that meeting, although we haven't pinned down Janice Cochrane yet, and that is unfortunately because we didn't want to move the schedule. We put it as a third hour to a meeting on March 21.

We lost our meeting on March 19 because of the tabling of the federal budget, and Mr. Flaherty wouldn't defer to us, unfortunately. We asked him.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Also, colleagues, at the request of the Auditor General, and I know we've tried this before, this is a very informal briefing session that the steering committee agreed to have on Monday next week, just on the two chapters we're talking about. These are general broad-brush expenditure issues, and it's going to be a very informal briefing session for one hour for members and for their staff. Some of you may want to come, some of you may not want to come, but that notice has been sent around. And lunch will be served.

We should receive a motion for the approval of the steering committee minutes, as circulated, if someone's prepared to make that motion.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

I so move.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Any discussion?

All in favour? There is just one voter. Is nobody else going to vote on this? I bet it's going to carry today.

All those contrary-minded?

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, do you have a motion or a suggestion?

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I'd like to reintroduce a motion. It reads as follows, and it is translated:

In order to ensure that the Public Accounts Committee is fully able to get to the bottom of the serious criminal issues surrounding the findings of the Auditor General in Chapter 9 of the Auditor General’s Report of November 2006–Pension and Insurance Administration–Royal Canadian Mounted Police, I move that the following persons be asked to appear as witnesses before the Public Accounts Committee on February 28, 2007:

Staff/Sergeant Ron Lewis (Retired)

Denise Revine (Public Service Employee)–RCMP

Chief Superintendent Fraser Macaulay (RCMP)

Staff Sergeant Steve Walker (RCMP)

Staff Sergeant Mike Frizzell (RCMP)

A/Comm. Gork

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, thank you very much for your motion. Unless you have unanimous consent, that will be tabled and it will be debated and voted on in Monday's meeting.