Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 21st, 2007

[D/Commr Barbara George]

I would never say that was okay. Again I'll draw your—

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Well, you did.

[D/Commr Barbara George]

No, I didn't. That was—

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Again:

Human Resources staff claimed that because of work pressures, they allowed the NCPC Director to hire casual employees on his own rather than following the regular staffing process.

[D/Commr Barbara George]

Mr. Chair, those were actions taken by individuals who are no longer with the RCMP. Again, that was several years ago. This should never have happened.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I'm glad you said it should never have happened, but you can't blame....

It's the institution, Mr. Chairman. These people are working for the RCMP. They are employed by the RCMP. They are wearing the uniform of the RCMP. To say it was individuals who broke the rules is not satisfactory, in my opinion.

I'm also looking at paragraph 6 of the opening statement of the Assistant Auditor General. He says in here:

The memorandum with the Ottawa Police Service was signed 10 months after the start of the investigation. We found that the organization of the investigation, with the lead OPS investigator reporting to an RCMP Assistant Commissioner, compromised the appearance of independence.

I can't imagine, Mr. Chairman, that the RCMP and the Ottawa police, when they investigate a crime, an alleged crime, or what is perceived to be a crime, would not keep all the people who were alleged to be involved up to speed and report to them on their investigation.

Why would the OPS be reporting to an assistant commissioner of the RCMP when they were investigating the RCMP, Mr. Bevan?

[Chief Vince Bevan]

Mr. Chair, they were not on operational matters. They were on administrative matters. I will admit that the wording of the MOU leaves a lot to be desired, and I appreciate the fact that the Office of the Auditor General has drawn that to our attention.

I can tell you that it was an unusual situation. As Mr. McRoberts said earlier, this was the first time any such MOU had been in place between the Ottawa Police Service and the RCMP. We have had other occasions when we have investigated the RCMP. The situation in this particular case was that we didn't need an MOU at all to go in to exercise our jurisdiction.

We had the jurisdiction to conduct this investigation. What we needed was support to get the resources and to get access to documents. That was the purpose of having Assistant Commissioner Gork in place. He was to facilitate that.

The other thing is that under the Police Services Act of Ontario right now, whenever the Ottawa police go to another Ontario jurisdiction to do an investigation, we expect to be compensated for our costs. We needed the MOU in this particular case because we anticipated that we were going to do an independent audit, a forensic audit, which would be very expensive. We knew there was going to be travel involved, and I was also concerned, in the very early days, that a number of improprieties were identified. Initially we thought this would be a three-month investigation, and I was concerned that the lead investigator, the inspector from our criminal investigative services who was assigned to lead this investigation, was going to be retired before it was completed and had ultimately gone through court.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Chairman, this is bizarre. It is bizarre that the OPS, investigating a crime in the province of Ontario, needs an MOU with the alleged victim or perpetrator, to say, “Can we come in and take a look at your books?” I thought search warrants were normally the way they would do these things. And then they turn around and say they're going to bill the client, the alleged criminal organization, for the work they have done investigating. This is bizarre. I've never heard of this kind of stuff before, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

It doesn't happen on Law & Order, does it?

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

No, it doesn't, and it shouldn't happen in the RCMP.

[Chief Vince Bevan]

It's written into the statute in the province of Ontario.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Well, we had better take a look at these statutes, because when it comes down to criminal investigations, a criminal investigation is a criminal investigation. It doesn't matter if it's in the upper echelon of the RCMP, down in skid row, or in the mafia. A criminal investigation should be followed through appropriately, with search warrants and with the full force of the law.

Then we find out that because of a court case, the whole thing falls apart and nobody gets prosecuted. Everybody walks away here, Mr. Chairman. I find that very discomforting.

I have one final point, but I don't suppose I have too much time left.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

You have a minute and a half, Mr. Williams.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Madam Commissioner, in your report you mention “that the RCMP had indeed responded adequately to the findings of the internal audit and to the Ottawa Police Service investigation”, yet the Office of the Auditor General is saying that they estimate that $1.3 million was charged for work of little value and only $270,000 has been reimbursed. That leaves another $1 million outstanding. Are you going to pay that back?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

Mr. Chairman, that is one of the recommendations that is ongoing. We are looking to determine how much of the work of little or no value that was invoiced needs to be returned, through Public Works, to the office that charged it.

There is more than $270,000 paid back. Could I ask my colleague from our CMO's office to describe again exactly how much?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

Mr. Chairman, the amount identified was $1.3 million in the Auditor General's report. After further review, since we got the report, we have now actually either recouped or reimbursed $759,000. That leaves a balance of $373,000, which we are still looking at.

A big part of that is an amount that was paid to Consulting and Audit Canada for consultants who worked on this particular project. They were hired by the people who were doing the outsourcing project at the time.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I just want to ask something of Mr. McRoberts, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. McRoberts, are you quite clear that the $1.3 million is owing?

[Hugh McRoberts]

Mr. Chair, this is an estimate that we developed in looking at the books. We believe it is owing, to the extent that ultimately the charges can be validated.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. McRoberts.

Thank you, Mr. Williams.

Mr. Christopherson for eight minutes.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair. My thanks to all for presenting today.

I want to follow up on Mr. Williams' concerns about the relationship between the Ottawa Police Service and the RCMP. I think both of you will agree—I'll give you an opportunity to disagree if you wish—that in performing your duties in your respective services, you not only have to be fair and just, but you have to have the appearance of being fair and just. The concern here is that this relationship does not look very good.

As a former Ontario Solicitor General who has called in the RCMP when I had issues with the OPP, I can say that the important thing is the whole arm's-length relationship. Otherwise it doesn't work. The whole point of it is to make sure there isn't this kind of overlap.

Chief, I just want to get back to this issue. You were talking about the reporting mechanism being on the operational side. Has that been standard any other time you've gone into other police services?

[Chief Vince Bevan]

To separate the operational issues? Yes.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

And to be reporting directly to an officer within that police service.

[Chief Vince Bevan]

For administrative purposes.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Is that standard?

[Chief Vince Bevan]

Yes, and I can give you other examples. Probably the highest-profile one was the one in which there was an RCMP lead on an internal investigation into Toronto a few years ago, regarding the drug section.