Public Accounts Committee on April 18th, 2007

[Paul Roy]

He understood.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I have a real problem, Madam George. Assistant Commissioner Gork is moved to France. Sergeant Frizzell is removed from the investigation. Superintendent Macaulay is seconded to DND. As for Denise Revine, after 33 years her job is dissolved. Jim Ewanovich and Dominic Crupi are suspended with pay. A junior officer actually initiates an investigation insubordinately with an A Division commander and is not disciplined for it. John Spice, the integrity officer, is gone. There's no doubt in my mind that the circumstances seem out of control here when everybody who was involved in the investigation seemingly is absent without leave.

Sergeant Frizzell, you mentioned in your testimony earlier that you felt that Barbara George was involved in misappropriation of funds. Is that correct?

[S/Sgt Mike Frizzell]

Yes.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Could you please expand on that for me? What were the indications that this was the case?

[S/Sgt Mike Frizzell]

I explained to Ms. George in person and in great detail, and apparently, according to Mr. Gork, quite simply, the whole insurance deal, why the money was being taken out of the members' insurance plans without authorization and without any legislative support. So she very well knew, even not taking into account that she's in charge of that unit. Actually, I was told that it was orders from her as to why the almost $600,000 was taken out of the insurance funds in March 2005.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Okay.

Quickly, Mr. Roy, is it uncommon for an investigative officer to use a baited voice mail message in order to extract truthful testimony from a witness? Is that uncommon or inappropriate?

[Paul Roy]

I'm not saying it's inappropriate.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you very much.

So you're saying, Mr. Frizzell, that these issues with the pension and the insurance fund continued after Mr. Ewanovich was gone.

[S/Sgt Mike Frizzell]

Yes.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Okay.

In the voice mail you tabled in the committee, you referred to a meeting with Paul Gauvin. What was said at that meeting?

[S/Sgt Mike Frizzell]

That's up for debate. What I heard at that meeting was that the commissioner had asserted that it was indeed the RCMP's responsibility to administer the insurance funds. This was less than two weeks after four of our members were gunned down at Mayerthorpe, so it was a very sensitive issue. He asserted that of course the RCMP was responsible for the administration, they would take over it right away, the money would no longer be drained from the members' accounts, but they would have to go to Treasury Board to see if they could get authorization to pay back all the money that had been drained over the years.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sweet.

Mr. Lussier, for three minutes.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

In your opening remarks, Mr. Roy, you referred to your service record and also spoke about the Property & Enterprise Crime Units.

Was the Ottawa Police Service your last employer?

[Paul Roy]

Yes.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

And you had been assigned to this special unit.

[Paul Roy]

Yes, that's correct.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Are you familiar with IMET, the Integrated Market Enforcement Team?

[Paul Roy]

No, I can't say that I am. Are you referring to an RCMP unit?

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

The unit is operated jointly by the RCMP and the Ottawa Police Service.

[Paul Roy]

I believe you're referring to the investigations unit. We call it the Hi-Tech Crime Unit.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I see.

Are you familiar with the Joint Securities Intelligence Unit?

[Paul Roy]

We may refer to these units by slightly different names.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

This unit investigates property crimes.

Have you ever worked with Mr. David Braun?

[Paul Roy]

No, I have not.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Do you know the man?