Evidence of meeting #50 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was george.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:50 p.m.
D/Commr Barbara George
June 2005—whenever the investigation was closed down.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
When you were asked on February 21 before this committee the following question, “Can you tell us who it was who removed Mr. Frizzell?”, you said, “No, I'm not aware of who it was. The best I can state is that when Sergeant Frizzell left, I understood he returned to his home division, which was “A” division. I'm being careful with regard to the privacy concerns here, but I understood it was for health reasons.”
So you said before this committee only a month and a half ago that you understood Mr. Frizzell had been removed for health reasons. But now you have produced this spectacular e-mail basically illustrating a monster from whom people went screaming, who caused people to flee in terror, and who was impossible to work with.
So which is it? You said here, before this committee on February 21, that it was for health reasons that he'd been removed, but today you tell a story of his misconduct. Was it his misconduct that led to his removal or was it health reasons, as you said last time?
4:50 p.m.
D/Commr Barbara George
When I spoke to you on February 21, I understood that Frizzell had had many problems, leading with obsessiveness, regarding the investigation, and finally he had gone off-duty sick. The e-mail that's being passed around now--is that David Gork's e-mail? Because I don't see it.
4:50 p.m.
D/Commr Barbara George
Okay, look at the date when David Gork responded back to me and gave me that information. That was information I did not have at that time.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
I'm sorry, but I find that very difficult to believe, because you were head of human resources, and if someone in Mr. Frizzell's position had been removed for such spectacular cause as is described in this e-mail, I find it very difficult to believe that you would not have been informed about that before an e-mail.
4:50 p.m.
D/Commr Barbara George
I would not have been informed of that except via Dave Gork at the time, if he so felt, because the decision would have been taken by the operating officer in charge of that investigation.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
4:50 p.m.
D/Commr Barbara George
Paul Roy had every right to remove any investigator that he deemed fit. He wouldn't have come and asked me. Don't forget, sir, there are 25,000 people in the RCMP. Many of them go off on sick leave or other leave. I'm not informed.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Yes, I know. Well, this wasn't just any one of 25,000 people.
4:50 p.m.
D/Commr Barbara George
No, it wasn't.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
This was someone doing an investigation into misappropriation of funds.
Mr. Frizzell, do you believe that your removal was related to the possibility that you would find Ms. George had illegally directed funds out of the insurance fund?
4:50 p.m.
S/Sgt Mike Frizzell
Yes.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Today Ms. George has given a different story from what she did on February 21 before this committee to explain your removal. She said health reasons on February 21, and today she has an e-mail describing you as someone of great misconduct--
4:50 p.m.
D/Commr Barbara George
Which I just received after my testimony on February 21. I could not have given that information on February 21, as I did not have it, sir.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Yes, I know the date of the e-mail indicates you did not have it, but I find it very hard to believe that if someone in your organization was removed because he sent people running out of meetings, because he was a borderline abusive, you would not have had any idea of that--
4:55 p.m.
D/Commr Barbara George
No.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
--until an e-mail that you suddenly and miraculously received after you testified in this committee, years after the event occurred.
4:55 p.m.
D/Commr Barbara George
I had no business to know this. This was an OPS investigation, and he could have removed or kept on anybody as he so wished.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Okay.
That I find very interesting and very difficult to believe. I think you will allow me to be skeptical.
I'd like to talk about some of the contracting that went on in the compensation policy centre. Last meeting I brought with me this KPMG report, Mr. Frizzell, which demonstrates that in one case we have an individual, Mr. Crupi, who gave a contract to Consulting and Audit Canada, which then gave a contract to Abotech, another company, in order to give the contract to a Mr. Onischuk to write policies on contracting. In other words, every one of these people I've just described took a cut of the cake as they went down the line. It's like I take the contract here and I take a piece of the pie and I pass it to my friend, who then takes a piece of the pie; he passes it to his friend, and it gets down to the very end, where Mr. Williams has it. And now he has my document, and he won't want to be touching that document because it's a contract for which you've just been paid, even though you've done absolutely nothing in the way of work. That's what this audit reveals.
Were you finding these kinds of practices in that branch?
4:55 p.m.
S/Sgt Mike Frizzell
Yes, and more. There was also a matter of hiring your wife's friends and paying the contractor, using rough figures, $400 a day for that person, and they would pay that person $100 a day. So these were the things that we did not follow up on that—again, I was being obsessive—to me were pretty big deals, when you're giving your buddy contacts for $400 a day and they're only paying the employee a fraction of that.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
In this case, Consulting and Audit Canada's official, Mr. Brazeau, was actually giving this contract for work of little or no value to his cousin, Mr. David Smith. Were you aware that was going on?
4:55 p.m.
S/Sgt Mike Frizzell
I didn't know they were related, but there was no question it was being directed there, simply so Abotech could make some money.
