Evidence of meeting #55 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contracts.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Smith  As an Individual
Dominic Crupi  As an Individual
Frank Brazeau  As an Individual
David Marshall  Deputy Minister, Public Works and Government Services Canada
Shahid Minto  Chief Risk Officer, Public Works and Government Services Canada
Greg McEvoy  Associate Partner, KPMG
Commissioner Paul Gauvin  Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I'd like to call the meeting to order and ask the cameras to leave the room, please.

Thank you very much.

I want first of all to extend to everyone here a very warm welcome.

Colleagues, witnesses, members of the interested public, this is a meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. It's a continuation of chapter 9, “Pension and Insurance Administration—Royal Canadian Mounted Police”, all pursuant to the November 2006 Report of the Auditor General of Canada.

We're very pleased today to have six witnesses with us. First of all, we have Greg McEvoy, associate partner with the accounting firm of KPMG, who did the forensic audit into certain aspects. Mr. McEvoy, welcome to the committee.

From the Department of Public Works and Government Services Canada, we have the deputy minister and accounting officer, Mr. David Marshall, and the chief risk officer, Shahid Minto. Of course a lot of us know Mr. Minto was previously with the Office of the Auditor General. Welcome back to the committee, Mr. Minto.

As individuals, we have Dominic Crupi, who's been before the committee before; Mr. Frank Brazeau, who's formally associated with Consulting and Audit Canada; and Mr. David Smith, from the firm Abotech Inc. Welcome to all of you.

I understand that we have four individuals with opening remarks.

It's been the practice of the committee in this particular hearing to swear in the witnesses, so I am going to swear in all six individuals.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

For clarification, I've noticed that Mr. Gauvin, Mr. Macaulay, and Mr. Frizzell are on the list, but crossed off, and I notice a couple of those gentlemen here. Are they here to appear as witnesses?

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

We found, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, nine is more witnesses than this meeting can really handle. We felt, first of all, that Mr. Macaulay and Mr. Frizzell really had nothing to do with the subject matter that we're talking about this afternoon, although I understand they're in the audience.

Mr. Gauvin is also in the audience, I understand, but, again, we're leaving the table to the six. Again, if there are any relevant questions to Mr. Gauvin, we could invite him up, but we prefer to keep our questions, if possible, to the six witnesses.

We certainly don't see Mr. Frizzell or Mr. Macaulay having anything to do with this hearing.

We'll proceed with swearing in of the witnesses.

3:30 p.m.

David Smith As an Individual

I, David Smith, do swear that the evidence that I'll give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

3:30 p.m.

Dominic Crupi As an Individual

I, Dominic Crupi, do swear that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

3:30 p.m.

Frank Brazeau As an Individual

I, Frank Brazeau, do swear that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

3:30 p.m.

David Marshall Deputy Minister, Public Works and Government Services Canada

I, David Marshall, do swear that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

3:30 p.m.

Shahid Minto Chief Risk Officer, Public Works and Government Services Canada

I, Shahid Minto, do swear that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

3:30 p.m.

Greg McEvoy Associate Partner, KPMG

I, Greg McEvoy, do swear that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much.

We're going to hear from you, Mr. McEvoy, first.

3:30 p.m.

Associate Partner, KPMG

Greg McEvoy

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and committee members. Thank you for inviting me here today.

My name is Greg McEvoy. I'm an associate partner with KPMG in the forensic group. I am a chartered accountant, and have worked as a forensic accountant for approximately 16 years. I am designated as a specialist in forensic and investigative accounting by the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants. A significant portion of my experience has involved working with the federal government.

In late October 2004, KPMG was called by Consulting and Audit Canada and asked to review and investigate the procurement activity that CAC had conducted on behalf of the RCMP National Compensation Policy Centre, or NCPC.

I was the project manager leading this work, and significantly involved in the file. Initially KPMG was asked to review 31 contracts that CAC managed on behalf of the NCPC, and 30 of these contracts had been managed by a specific project manager, Mr. Frank Brazeau. Our file review of these 31 contracts took place from October to December of 2004. We identified serious concerns in the manner in which these contracts were procured. Due to our initial findings with respect to these contracts, a decision was made to review an additional 14 contracts, 13 of which were awarded to a company called Abotech Inc., which we understood to be owned and managed by Mr. David Smith.

Based on KPMG's review of these 45 contracts and related information, it is our view that the processes for managing and administering these contracts, when considered in their entirety, did not meet Treasury Board policy. The contracting was not conducted in a manner that would stand the test of public scrutiny in matters of prudence and probity. It did not facilitate access or encourage competition; quite the contrary. It did not reflect fairness in the spending of public funds. In particular, we found evidence of a process to facilitate contracts to desired resources, contract splitting, and contract backdating involving the creation of contracts for work that had already been performed.

In the case of Abotech, we found evidence of a pattern of referrals from Mr. Brazeau to Abotech, and also evidence of a process to facilitate contracts through Abotech to a resource desired by a given client.

We attempted to interview Mr. Brazeau during this timeframe, as his explanations and perspectives were obviously key to gaining a full understanding of his actions. However, he elected not be interviewed on the advice of his legal and union advisers. His response to KPMG is included on page 4 of the executive summary of our report.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak. I will be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you, Mr. McEvoy.

We're now going to hear from Mr. Marshall, Deputy Minister of the Department of Public Works and Government Services.

3:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Public Works and Government Services Canada

David Marshall

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm pleased to have an opportunity to outline for members of this committee as briefly as possible the actions of Public Works and Government Services Canada as they relate to the matter before you today. Our chief risk officer, Mr. Shahid Minto, accompanies me.

Consulting and Audit Canada is a special operating agency operating within Public Works and Government Services Canada. Its services are available only to federal government organizations and, on request, to other public sector and international organizations.

CAC provides a full set of government-oriented consulting and auditing services to the public sector. It may augment its in-house resources with private sector consultants to the benefit of its clients. It has also provided procurement services by contracting for external resources for the benefit of its clients. I believe it is this contracting service that is of interest to the committee at this time, and I will address it in more detail.

Shortly after my appointment in the summer of 2003, the Auditor General issued a report on the Privacy Commissioner Radwanski situation in September of 2003. In that report CAC was cited for having inappropriately placed some resources under contract for the Office of the Privacy Commissioner. As well, I was concerned that CAC was conducting auditing, consulting, and contracting services in the same organization, and I wanted to better understand if there was sufficient segregation of these functions in line with emerging trends in the auditing and consulting professions.

As a result, I asked that CAC conduct a thorough internal review of their contracting practices, as well as a review of their mandate and practices relating to segregation of duties. The internal review started in June 2004 and began to show some disturbing signs that the contracting work done by CAC on behalf of other departments had serious flaws. The chief auditor of CAC verbally shared this with me in September. At the same time he advised me that some of the contracts he had independently selected for audit and that he was concerned about, contracts relating to the RCMP pension fund and managed by a particular CAC employee, were also being investigated by the RCMP themselves.

This led to our retaining the services of KPMG forensic audit to dig into the matter more deeply. As well, I asked our chief risk officer to take over the mandate review. Initially KPMG was asked, as you heard, to look into 31 contracts put in place by a particular employee for the NCPC; it's actually 30 contracts, and one other by another employee.

As the findings of this work started to emerge, we asked KPMG to explore whether the same contractors who were engaged in the NCPC were also being sent to other clients. This resulted in a further 14 contracts being reviewed, 13 of which were with Abotech. Internally we referred to the investigation report of these 45 contracts as the KPMG 1 report. I believe the committee has obtained the KPMG report on this investigation.

The findings were of sufficient concern to me that I asked KPMG to widen its scope and to conduct a series of further investigations. First they looked at all high-risk contracts managed by this particular employee over the three-year period 2002-2005. We called this report KPMG 2. The findings confirmed, and provided further evidence of, poor practices followed by this employee.

Next, since this employee alleged that he was only following normal accepted practices at CAC, I asked KPMG to look at all high-risk contracts managed by all CAC employees for all clients during the period. We call this report KPMG 3. The conclusion was that while there was evidence of poor practices, they were not as serious or as widespread as those found relative to the particular employee.

Finally, I asked KPMG to do a review of what actions management had taken over the three-year period to exercise control over the operation and to ensure good practices were followed. That was KPMG 4. The findings were that management had indeed taken several actions, and that improvements in control had occurred over the three-year period; however, for a variety of reasons, they were not as effective as they should have been.

Mr. Chairman, we took several actions as a result of this series of findings. First of all, the employee in question was terminated. The contracting authority for Consulting and Audit Canada was removed at an early stage in these investigations.

The KPMG reports and files were referred to the RCMP. The Abotech file was also referred to the Ethics Commissioner. Consulting and Audit Canada was restructured to separate consulting from auditing. Key management staff received sanctions. Contracting staff at CAC were reprimanded and received additional training and supervision as required. The Office of the Auditor General, the Privy Council Office, and the Treasury Board Secretariat were kept fully informed through the process.

The RCMP has advised us that there is no evidence of fraud. As well, additional investigation by Public Works' own fraud investigations directorate of the records of Abotech and other contractors involved in this file found that records were properly kept and work appears to have been done as contracted for.

As you are aware, CAC has charged the RCMP some $666,000 for work conducted in obtaining and administering contracts on behalf of the NCPC. We have already refunded $200,000 of this fee to the RCMP in light of the poor practices of one of our employees. We are currently in discussion with the RCMP on how the responsibility for what happened in connection with the improper contracting practices should be shared, and we expect to resolve this matter very shortly.

I will be happy to answer questions.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thanks very much, Mr. Marshall.

Mr. Crupi, I understand you have some opening remarks.

3:40 p.m.

As an Individual

Dominic Crupi

Yes, very short. Thank you.

Once again, I would like to thank the committee for this opportunity to speak.

I became the director of NCPC in February 2001 on an acting basis and in September 2001 on a full-time basis with a mandate to implement the pension modernization. During this time, I gave regular updates, communiqués, and briefings to senior management at the RCMP and updated the necessary approvals from Treasury Board. I did not ever knowingly or purposely bypass or circumvent or advise anyone to bypass any processes or approvals, nor did I threaten any individual with losing their job.

I've already stated that I am not a procurement expert, so I hired someone to perform those duties. I requested help from RCMP contracting. They subsequently told us they could not accommodate our request, as they were too busy, and to go to Public Works. Public Works also told us that they could not accommodate us within the timeframes. We were then made aware of Consulting and Audit Canada, who, we were told, were a viable and legal entity to accommodate our procurement needs. I informed both Jim Ewanovich and Paul Gauvin. In fact, Mr. Gauvin indicated that it was an acceptable risk, as the costs would be significantly higher if the project were delayed for one year, because we were contractually obligated to start paying the outsourcer in May 2003.

At no time was there any collusion on my part with CAC or individuals from CAC.

Thank you. I'll answer any questions.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Mr. Crupi.

Mr. Smith, I understand you have opening remarks.

3:40 p.m.

As an Individual

David Smith

Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman.

I am here today in the interest of transparency and because of the willingness I have always shown since the time I first entered politics. I am surprised at having been invited.

Abotech was an SSE, that is, a small small enterprise, which placed consultants. When the company placed a consultant, it received a commission of between 5% to 10% on the contract margin. As for placement contracts with the RCMP, Abotech received two of them for a total value of $16,000 before taxes with a gross profit of 7%.

There seems to have been a problem with regard to the RCMP pension fund, but that was not the fault of Abotech. I encourage the people sitting at this table, as well as authorities, to get to the bottom of the matter. Abotech is not the problem. Abotech is an SSE which placed consultants in accordance with the framework in place at the time.

Mr. Chairman, last Friday I was told that there would be a meeting today. I was told that people were looking for me. A third party informed me that people were looking for me. My address hasn't changed, I still live in the same place, and my name is still in the phone book. I don't have anything to hide; I have always been very transparent. It is important to point that out.

I never read the report which is being discussed today and I never authorized its disclosure. What is said in the report is the interpretation of a third person. That interpretation came following a conversation we had, him and I, but I cannot tell you whether it reflects what I said because unfortunately I have not read the report.

I would be pleased to answer your questions. Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Mr. Smith.

That, colleagues, concludes the opening remarks.

We're going to go to the first round. We'll try a round of eight minutes.

Mr. Rota.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Smith, can you tell us exactly what it was that Abotech did? You talked about the placement of consultants. Can you tell us exactly what this entailed?

3:45 p.m.

As an Individual

David Smith

The process was very simple. I received a phone call from an individual, a former public servant who had some expertise. He told me that it was possible to get a contract through Consulting and Audit Canada. He wanted to know whether I would be interested in submitting his name for the contract in question.

I then fed his resume into the data base of Consulting and Audit Canada. A week or two later, I usually received, as did four or five other companies, an invitation to tender the names of potential candidates. So I presented the candidacy of the person through the call for tenders process. The call for tenders was put out by either Ms. Gour or Ms. Copping.

I put in my tender and was then advised by one of the two above-mentioned people whether or not I had gotten the contract. In a situation where the consultant asked for $500 a day, for instance, I added a margin of between 7% and 10% to cover administrative costs. The consultant earned $500, and I received $35 a day. That's how it worked. In the National Capital Region, hundreds of companies operate this way. The only difference is that they add on between 15% and 25%.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

During your tenure as president of the firm, how often did you bid on federal contracts and on contracts for other governments?

3:45 p.m.

As an Individual

David Smith

I probably bid between 20 and 25 times. I got about 15 contracts. It was a lot of work for what I earned. But I wasn't working only for that specific contract. Abotech was also the shareholder of a company which developed computer software, and I wanted to sell this software to the government. Every time I knocked on a door, I was told that the company didn't have enough experience. I was able to sell the software to the Government of Quebec and to Quebec companies, but it wasn't so easy to market it to the federal government. So I thought to myself that if I got into the consultant placement business, the government would think that the company did have expertise and might therefore give it a small contract to develop software.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

You mentioned that you received a total about 15 contracts.

3:45 p.m.

As an Individual

David Smith

At most. A percentage of 7% on about $750,000 is $50,000 profit over four years, which comes to more or less $12,500 a year. That represents less than 10% of the annual salary of a member of Parliament.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

You also mentioned that Abotech added on between 5% to 10%.