Evidence of meeting #57 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
The second thing, Mr. Chair, is regarding the point that we're not debating whether the RCMP ought to be unionized.
I guess we're just getting them now. Thank you very much.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Mr. Chair, he's wasting my time. Let him waste his own time.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
The documents that are being referred to have been translated, but we just got them. They have been circulated to all members.
Mr. Christopherson.
4:45 p.m.
A/Commr John Spice
The question is what exactly?
4:45 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
The answer is that you just heard what Mr. Girard had to say and he mentioned your name. I just want to give you a chance, in that your name was mentioned, to say you agree with him or disagree.
4:45 p.m.
A/Commr John Spice
I would agree. During my tenure as the ethics adviser I dealt primarily with bad behaviour. I was working probably 12 and 14 hours a day and sometimes on weekends. Is that problematic? I would venture to say yes, it was.
4:45 p.m.
A/Commr John Spice
I should also qualify this comment by saying that the number of people I dealt with was small in comparison to the number of people in the organization.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
That's what I was going to ask. You can have a lot of numbers and be back-logged because you don't have staff, or you can have a lot of numbers because it's way above what we should expect to see, given that we're dealing with human beings in an organization.
4:45 p.m.
A/Commr John Spice
We should have had zero tolerance for any sort of unethical behaviour. Quite frankly, as much as I would like to say that we tried, we failed miserably. It was unfortunate for a good number of staff across the country, everyone from municipal employees, public servants, civilian members, and regular members of all ranks and categories. We didn't do as well as we ought to have done.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Mr. Lavoie, do you have any prior experience working in access to information, in the ATIP branch, prior to being promoted and transferred there as a superintendent?
4:45 p.m.
Supt Pierre Lavoie
Experience in what sense?
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Did you have any experience in access to information or the ATIP branch prior to being promoted to superintendent and heading up the ATIP branch there?
4:45 p.m.
Supt Pierre Lavoie
I did not have any experience per se, but I had been involved in personal information protection and exchange of information when I was at the Canadian Police Information Centre.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Mr. Gauvin, did you have any input in the transfer of Mr. Lavoie from your department into access to information, the ATIP branch?
4:45 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
The only input I had is that in the RCMP there is a succession planning, and we have a unit that does this. When the individual who was in charge in ATIP left, they asked me about Mr. Lavoie. I didn't know Mr. Lavoie when he came to work for me. He worked for me, I think, for a couple of years in a very difficult section that deals with travel and removal of members.
4:45 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
The answer is that I highly recommended him, yes.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
I see.
Mr. Lavoie, I read a problematic quote from a memo from Mr. Estabrooks. That was from March of last year. In April from last year there was this A5 in which Mr. Estabrooks says, and it's to you once again: “I can see no reason why it has taken months for Louis Alberti to give us a legal opinion. Are we assisting in some sort of cover-up...?”
You had mentioned earlier, when I asked you about the previous memo to you, that just prior to receiving it you had spoken with Mr. McConnell, I believe you said, and you were told the report should not be released. But then you got Mr. Estabrooks' memorandum, and now a month later you receive this A5. What exactly did you do? Did it go up the ranks? Did you talk to your supervisors about these two memos?
4:50 p.m.
Supt Pierre Lavoie
First off, the memo of March 21 was the first of a number of pieces of correspondence that were generated as a result. As you can imagine, I was dealing with a huge backlog in access to information requests and privacy requests. I was dealing with human resource issues. We were in the process of moving to new quarters on the fourth floor.
To be frank, I was quite frustrated--
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Okay. We've heard before that you were overworked, that there was a big backlog. There's an assistant commissioner who we should perhaps call forward at a certain point to find out what the procedures on this would be. These are serious allegations.
Did you actually talk with your superiors? Did you talk with the assistant commissioner about these allegations?