Public Accounts Committee on May 14th, 2007

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Why is it that Mr. Girard was forbidden from seeking that position?

[Ron Lewis]

I shared caucus with Mr. Girard for ten years. I was also elected in four terms. It was quite well known that Mr. Girard and others were trying to force unionization, against the members' will. Being a member of the staff relations program means you have obligations to the program. There is policy that says you can't be in a conflict. You can't be an elected staff relations representative and also try to disband it through letters to politicians, amendments or bills in the House and the Senate, and asking for funding to be stopped. That is a clear.... He has done this over the years. My understanding was that you cannot run if you are in a conflict of interest.

I've asked for access to information and never suffered any consequences. I've made complaints, as you can see, and never had any consequences. So I dispute his reason for his not being allowed to run as a staff relations representative.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Would efforts to override the members and unionize the organization be in contradiction with the constitution of your organization?

[Ron Lewis]

There is a policy in the administration--I think it's 37(d)--that says you can't be in conflict of interest and be a staff relations representative. That would be part of being a staff relations representative.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Who would have made the decision to disallow him?

[Ron Lewis]

There is an office known as the staff relations program office. They are the go-between for the management and the staff relations representative. They would have made that decision. It was not management; it was the program itself.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

So this would not have been management that made the decision to disallow him from being a candidate.

[Ron Lewis]

That's correct.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

As for his claim that he was forbidden from running because he had asked toughed questions and filed access to information requests, you have asked the same tough questions and filed the same kinds of access to information queries and you were never disallowed as a result.

[Ron Lewis]

That's correct. In fact that is our role, to uncover problems in the RCMP and to bring them forward. That's the normal process.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

It does sound like this is more of a dispute over whether or not RCMP officers have to be unionized. That makes for a very interesting debate, but it really has absolutely no pertinence to the discussion we're having here today. I'm just hoping that we can keep focused on the pension and insurance scandal, which is what we're discussing here, instead of having a theatrical debate about unionizing RCMP members. I'm sure that debate could be had at some point, but that has nothing to do with what we're discussing. Clearly Mr. Girard's problems with his organization have nothing to do with this scandal.

Moving back to the problems that we've been discussing here, I would like to ask Mr. Lewis one last question. It has been said that Mr. Gauvin had a tremendous amount of authority and power within the organization when Mr. Zaccardelli was the commissioner. In your view, Mr. Lewis, why was it that Mr. Gauvin had such sweeping powers?

[Ron Lewis]

I'm not really sure I understand or can give an opinion on that, if you want to base it more on facts.

I know the commissioner responded to a question after I briefed caucus in September of last year concerning Mr. Gauvin and his behaviour, and instead of answering about his behaviour he commented that since Mr. Gauvin has been our chief financial officer, he's been able to double our budget, and when he goes downtown to ask for money, he receives it before he even begins to speak...something to that effect. So I think he was quite impressed with his ability to increase our budget, as opposed to his behaviour.

That's based on the facts I know.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Mr. Gauvin, one of the reasons perhaps you were able to be so successful in extracting money from the previous government is because you had built such strong relationships, having been a Liberal political staffer in the office of the then Solicitor General Andy Scott. Were you in fact his chief of staff in his political office as minister?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

Yes. At the time it wasn't called chief of staff, it was called executive assistant, but in effect it was the same position.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

You were his senior political assistant in his office?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

Yes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

That's not a public service role. It's an important distinction. It's a role in the exempt staff.

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

That's right.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Now, how were you actually appointed to your existing position? Who made the appointment?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

As you know, Mr. Scott resigned after 18 months, I believe it was.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Yes.

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

And I did some consulting for a year, more or less. Then one day—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

I don't need to know the life story in between. I just need to know who made the appointment.

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

Commissioner Murray.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Commissioner Murray, okay.

Was Morneau Sobeco involved in putting together cost estimates that were later used for the RFP that it won to become the administrator of the pension program?