Public Accounts Committee on May 14th, 2007

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I should point out, Mr. Williams, we got this only an hour ago.

We'll start the first round, seven minutes.

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Gauvin, in your opening statement you addressed the allegation that we'd heard here previously from former assistant commissioner Gordon Clark that there had been a meeting he'd had with Mr. Zaccardelli where he raised the issue of a file that listed inappropriate things that perhaps the former commissioner had done. I'm glad you addressed your relationship, or lack thereof, with the former assistant commissioner, but in your opening statement you've also made it quite clear that at no point in time did you interfere with ATIP, the access to information process.

Did you at any time try to suppress, through ATIP, any expense claims by Mr. Zaccardelli that would have been inappropriate?

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Chairman, I do apologize for these interruptions, but Mr. Wrzesnewskyj has information that nobody else is privy to. I'm not aware, and this line of questioning all of a sudden pops up.

If Mr. Wrzesnewskyj is a member of this committee.... This is a committee that's doing the investigation, not Mr. Wrzesnewskyj supported by the rest of us.

We have to take control of this, Mr. Chairman. The question is quite appropriate, but why is it always this issue of one person being privy to information, privy to all these people coming from the back, and so on? We have to get a handle on this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Williams, I don't find anything improper at all with the question.

I'll allow Mr. Wrzesnewskyj to proceed.

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

First, I never received any request for any illegal transactions from anybody.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Or inappropriate?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

Or inappropriate.

In terms of your second question on, I believe you said, travel claims, one day, across my desk came a pile about two feet high of all the travel of Mr. Zaccardelli. I believe it was travel and hospitality. I was asked to look through it to see if I had any problems with releasing this. I looked at it and said, “Before we release it, we'd better go through the financial system and make sure that it agrees with the financial system, that all the transactions here are in the financial system. Otherwise, somebody will come along and say, well, there's another entry here with no claim.” That was my only concern.

We did verify them, and then, as I understand, it went back to ATIP and was released.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Did you ever demand of any of the officers working in ATIP, or for instance Sergeant Michel Joyal, to not release information on, for instance, an $80 shot of cognac in those expense claims that you just referenced?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

I never heard of Sergeant Joyal, and I certainly would never suppress any of that information.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

We heard some allegations that a couple of weeks ago your executive assistant, Mr. Cowan, came into the RCMP's ATIP offices late on a Friday, just before close, requesting documents. Did you instruct your executive assistant to do this?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

Mr. Chairman, it was late on a Friday, and I received from my lawyer some numbers—strictly file numbers—that had been discussed in the committee. I couldn't make any sense of the numbers, so I asked my executive assistant to go down to ATIP to see if we could get the titles against the file numbers--that's all, just the titles. He came back and said he had discussed it with the people there—and there were very few, as it was late on a Friday afternoon. They replied that they had to make some phone calls, because the people there could not make the decision. The reply was no, that the information was not releasable—and that was the end of that.

Then I talked to the 2IC in charge of public affairs, and asked him if such a list were available. He told me there had been a meeting of a number of people that afternoon, including the legal people. I or my staff were not invited, but yes, such a list was available; in fact, it was around the department. So they gave me the list, and basically all it was—and I have it here—was just the file numbers on one side and the titles in the middle, and that was it. So I never received any material other than just the file numbers and what they meant—otherwise, the numbers alone don't mean anything.

So this was late on a Friday, and I was coming back here on a Monday. Basically, I just wanted to get prepared over the weekend to make sure that whatever was being talked about, I would have an idea and be able to answer.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

So, Mr. Gauvin, at the end of the day on a Friday, you sent your executive assistant, not to get the actual files, but just the titles on the files?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

That is absolutely right, sir.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

You couldn't have called earlier in the day, just to ask?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

I only received it close to five o'clock, it must have been; that's why I couldn't go earlier in the day. By that time on a Friday afternoon, there are not very many people around. But I wasn't looking for files; all I was looking for was what these numbers meant. That's all.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Did you in any way attempt to suppress the release of documents concerning you, contained in the Ottawa Police Service's summary of the criminal investigation?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

Never, sir.

Mr. Chairman, when I received this request for advice, there were two documents. There was that Ottawa Police report—which I was surprised was there—and there was also the internal audit. The internal audit made sense to me, because at the time the internal audit was called, I was actually in charge of audit. I'm not now. The two documents were together, which I assumed was the reason they had been sent to me. They were in my office for four days, and actually in my executive assistant's office for three days, as he was on holiday. On the last day, they came to me. I looked at them, and it seemed to me that the discipline process was still in play; it was not decided. I thought this was probably privacy information; therefore, my recommendation was that this be looked at by the legal people.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Okay.

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

I returned them, and I haven't heard anything since.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Lavoie, I'm looking at a memorandum sent in March of last year by Mr. Estabrooks to you. It states:

It is my opinion that Mr. Gauvin is in a direct conflict of interest by having anything to do with the release of our proposed package as he is a key player in the pension matter. Just the fact that he has access to the documents is a conflict and unethical. Therefore, I leave it in your hands to report this to the Ethics Commissioner ASAP.

Did you report this to any of your superiors? What did you do with this?

[Supt Pierre Lavoie]

First, I want to point out that this document has a preface. On March 21, 2006, as Mr. Gauvin mentioned a few moments ago, I received a memo indicating that personal information and certain people were under investigation, and that the Ottawa Police Service's report should not be released.

I immediately advised Mr. Gauvin's assistant that this would simply not happen and that if he had any concerns, he could raise them with me, that we would discuss them, but that the report would not be released. Furthermore, I had given my word to the Director General of the Office of the Information Commissioner that the report would be released. For several months, the report had been stuck in legal services and there no end in sight.

A few moments after Mr. McConnell, Mr. Gauvin's assistant, left, I received a voice mail message telling me that the report should not be released, period, and that they would not do as I had suggested.

About an hour later, I received the memo from Mr. Estabrooks which is at issue here. I basically told him that I disagreed with him, that Mr. Gauvin's recommendations were just that, recommendations, and that I intended to do my job. That is what I told Mr. Gauvin. I immediately put the report in the file to be processed because, as coordinator, I was accountable to Mr. Dupuis from the Office of the Information Commissioner. In addition, he had been on my case every week for six months. It was not in my interest not to include the document in the file, because I wanted to do my job to the best of my abilities despite the obstacles which stood in my way.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Laforest, you have seven minutes.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have a few questions for Mr. Girard. You said that you had major problems with the RCMP and that you think they started when you filed access to information requests on the Ottawa Police Services report and on the immediate rehiring of retired members.

Were access to information requests made on a regular basis?

[S/Sgt André Girard]

For many years, that was not the case, but over time, more and more were made. I realized that it was hard to obtain information from within the organization and that it took a long time. I therefore chose to file access to information requests to get information as quickly as possible.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Since you could not get information from within the organization, you had no choice but to file requests under the Access to Information Act.