Evidence of meeting #57 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:35 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
I wasn't responsible for HR, and when this was put together—
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
4:35 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
The answer is no.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
4:35 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
I don't know if they were involved.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
4:35 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
I don't know.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Who invited Morneau Sobeco to make a presentation before the board committee on the pension advisory program? You were on the pension advisory committee.
4:35 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
I was on that committee, and it was discussed together, and the person who would have made the decision would have been the chairman of the committee.
4:35 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
It was Gary Loeppky at the time.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
4:35 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Chair, and notwithstanding Mr. Poilievre's belief that things are over, they may not necessarily be.
Staff Sergeant Girard, at the beginning you took the unusual step of asking for some measure of how well you're protected here. Your point was that many of the witnesses are either retirees or have senior rank, which gives them some protection. You feel, given your circumstance, that you were vulnerable.
I'd just like to hear what there is about your experience in the RCMP or this particular case that had you make that kind of a request. I took that as pretty significant.
4:40 p.m.
S/Sgt André Girard
Yes, sir. Even though I was a divisional representative for 16 years, there is always a certain fear, if I can say so, in stepping forward to express yourself freely, even in this democracy, especially in a paramilitary organization such as the RCMP. There are repercussions, and we see them every day happening to our members.
We have a lot of members who have unfortunately been hurt on the field. My fellow DSRRP members, who represent all those members on a day-to-day basis, know about this. They know about the harassment going on. They know about the sexual harassment and all those anomalies going on in the field. They know about the cover-ups going on in the field, and they're afraid to come forward.
I wanted to assure myself of this degree of protection because I'm exposing myself by coming here to express myself freely to this committee. I have the same feeling as the members in the field. The only thing is, I have 31 years of background behind me. But I still have a way to go in the organization, and I want to do it with pride. I want this organization to have the same motto and really live up to its motto, Maintiens le droit, which is indicated on each and every member's badge. That's what I want for the future of this organization.
I was listening to Mr. Lewis's comments earlier. He mentioned not having any difficulties. I'll leave it to the transcripts, but I understand that he testified previously before this committee and expressed a lot of frustration about obtaining information and documentation, and about actions by upper management personnel. I was sitting at the back and heard Mr. Lewis mention that.
He talks about the DSRRP being independent, but I'm sorry, it isn't independent. It is a program of the RCMP under the responsibility of the Commissioner of the RCMP, who has the sole responsibility under section 5 of the act for all the programs and their application, including DSRRP.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
You made quite a statement just a moment ago. I can't just leave it, although I don't want to launch into a whole other direction. You talked about sexual harassment and cover-ups. Are you suggesting there is a myriad of issues of wrongdoing out there--unacceptable behaviour that is not yet known but is still out there and happening? You leave the impression that it's rampant. I want to give you a chance to clarify that if it needs it.
4:40 p.m.
S/Sgt André Girard
I think one member at this table knows even more than I do on this issue. That is Mr. John Spice. I know he's aware of a lot of anomalies that went on during his term.
I know of cases. One of the big problems I faced as a division representative in the RCMP was institutional protectionism--anything to protect the image of the organization, sometimes at all costs. If there are some casualties they become...I think there's an expression for that.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
We won't go there.
Was Mr. Estabrook's behaviour an example of that--where he had reason to believe it was in his best interest to take photocopies of certain documents? Are you suggesting there are a lot of people in the RCMP who spend a lot of time at what is also known as CYA? We'll leave it at that; we all know what that is.
4:40 p.m.
S/Sgt André Girard
That is one thing you are taught in the training--CYA. I learned in training to cover myself always. As you advance in the organization and become aware of a lot of situations going on, you can see members protecting themselves more.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
My time is tight. Thank you.
I will ask you one very direct question, and then I'll go to Mr. Spice. We can't just leave that, so I'm going to deal with it. If we have to go somewhere later we can.
You said you sent letters of correspondence to ministers of both governments, Liberal and Conservative. Did you get any response to those letters you submitted about some of these issues?
4:45 p.m.
S/Sgt André Girard
No, I haven't, from the minister's office. I had the opportunity though to meet the minister.
4:45 p.m.
S/Sgt André Girard
Mr. Stockwell Day.
I had the opportunity to meet the minister, I think, on April 18, to the best of my recollection. I had the opportunity of presenting him with the documentation hand to hand--the documentation that I supplied to the clerk of the committee.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Okay, thank you.
Mr. Spice, I'm going to give you a moment to respond to what you just heard. Your name was mentioned.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.
We've heard repeated references to this documentation. I've been asking the clerk now for about 20 minutes to provide us with this documentation. It's very difficult for us to question Mr. Girard on letters he said he has submitted to ministers, both Liberal and Conservative, if we've not seen those letters. They haven't been given to me yet.
