Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 27th, 2012

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'd like a quick clarification, just to help.

In the Auditor General's report, Mr. AG, in April 2012, you said Transport Canada shared its detailed action plan with you and that it seems to be in place. Transport Canada's response says they are hoping to be positioned “to implement the Auditor General's recommendations by the end of 2013”. The Auditor General's report says there's a commitment to implement them no later than April 2013.

I think there are two components to this. Maybe you can help us understand a little bit why we have April 2013 and then “by the end of 2013”.

I'll go first to the Auditor General and your report. This is in paragraph 15, Mr. Auditor General. Then in the Transport Canada response, it's on page 2, where it says they hope to implement the Auditor General's recommendations by the end of 2013.

[Michael Ferguson]

I'll ask Mr. Laplante.

[Maurice Laplante, Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The information we provided in the report is based on the information the department provided to us at the end of the audit, so it is based on the action plan the department provided to us in April 2012. The proposed calendar for almost completed implementation was the end of April 2013.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Maybe Transport Canada can just talk about what was in your presentation.

[Anita Biguzs]

Mr. Chair, in our plan, which was very ambitious and consists of a number of different measures in a number of different areas, we basically set ourselves target dates in terms according to our capacity and how quickly we could work through some things, setting priorities.

We certainly have, as I say, set ourselves largely the April 2013 timeframe to deliver. There will be some initiatives that will continue on, as I was saying earlier. An example is the quality assurance program to ensure that we apply continuous improvement in what we are doing. If we have to make some adjustments, whether it's our procedures or our surveillance planning, we will build that in, but we have set ourselves a milestone of trying to conclude the majority of our action plan measures by April 2013.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Just so the public will clearly understand, we've had the 2008 report and we have the one that we're looking at right now, but in terms of Canada's safety in aviation, we recorded the lowest number of accidents in modern aviation history.

I want to make certain as we get into a time when people are going to be travelling a lot that we know that Canada's system, if you are going to fly in Canada, is one of the safest, if not the safest, in the world. We can always have improvements, and we're now asking for a response; both have said they will come back and talk about where they are at and how they are going to get to the end fairly quickly, because there has been a fair bit of work done since the report was actually commissioned.

I think what we're trying to do here is to make sure, as aviation continues to grow, that it is a safe way in Canada to travel. How do we know that we are actually going to be able to keep up? This goes to Transport Canada: how do we make sure that we keep up with that growth that we see in aviation, not only with the planes but also with the monitoring of the airports?

Can you give confidence to us that you are going to be able to meet the requirements they have with the number of inspectors and what those inspectors are required to do at the airports and with the aviation companies?

[Anita Biguzs]

Mr. Chair, the move to safety management systems, I think, is certainly a move to try to address what we know is growing volumes in the industry.

As I was mentioning, the idea is that we put a lot of onus on industry to be systems-based, to put in place systems that are proactive in identifying risks. Our job is also to assess those systems that carriers and operators have in place to make sure they meet our regulations, and we use a risk-based approach.

The work that we've been doing to address some of the gaps or the weaknesses that the Auditor General has identified was intended to help to focus us those efforts on making sure that we have the tools and the documentation and the consistency across the system, and that our inspectors, from one region to another, have the guidance they need in terms of implementing the plans and doing the inspections.

Mr. MacDonald, do you want to add to that?

[Gerard McDonald]

I think it really is a matter of us working in partnership with the industry and making sure that we both undertake to improve the safety culture in the system.

That indeed was one of the major driving forces at Transport Canada in moving to a systems-based approach to regulation, to make sure that the carriers played their part in ensuring the safety in the system while at the same time allowing ourselves adequate oversight of the system to ensure that if any intervention is needed, we take it, we take it quickly, and it has the desired effect.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Thank you. Your time has expired.

Now we go over to Mr. Byrne. You have the floor, sir.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Ferguson, you noted in your report that there are 5,000 aviation companies operating within the Canadian jurisdiction that are subject to federal oversight as part of Transport Canada's civilian aviation authority, that are its responsibilities.

Mr. Ferguson, you also noted that only the highest-risk companies within the Canadian jurisdiction are targeted for on-site surveillance of safety management protocols and inspections at the hanger level. Based on your notes, can you inform the committee how many Canadian companies are categorized by Canada's civil aviation authority as high-risk companies?

If that information is not available to you through your notes, may I ask the associate deputy minister?

[Anita Biguzs]

Mr. Chair, I'll turn to my colleague, but I will just open by saying that the risk-based process that we have put in place is basically looking at risk indicators, criteria—

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

With all due respect, I understand that. I'm asking a very specific question. Only Canadian civil aviation companies that are deemed as high risk, according to the Auditor General's report, are subject to on-site surveillance and inspection at the hanger level.

How many Canadian aviation companies are deemed high risk?

[Martin Eley, Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport]

I'm not sure I have the specific numbers.

I would like to clarify that the comments made by the Auditor General were appropriate in the sense that we were not managing it well. A lot of work that has gone on, particularly in the last year, was to put in place a consistent approach to make sure that all companies are managed according to risk across the country in a consistent way, so I believe that we have a much better plan.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

That's not my question, though. I appreciate your discussion around it, but it's not the discussion.

I would have come to a parliamentary committee with that information if I were reviewing an Auditor General's report on civil aviation and had noted that only high-risk companies are actually inspected by Canada's civil aviation authority and that only two-thirds of the number of inspections that were designated to occur actually occurred. It is a piece of information that Parliament should have available to it.

The second piece of information—I'll move to the next issue—that Parliament should have available to it is the national human resources plan for civil aviation oversight. As a human resources plan, that was promised in 2008. I understand it has been somewhat partially provided; however, as the Auditor General pointed out, the plan does not specify the number of inspectors or engineers that are needed to do the job.

May I ask Transport Canada, through you, the associate deputy minister, if you will provide Parliament with an updated national human resources plan for civil aviation oversight that includes specific numbers for inspectors and engineers, as per the Auditor General's findings and recommendations on that human resources plan?

[Anita Biguzs]

For the first question, I think I will turn the floor to Mr. McDonald and Mr. Eley.

Do you want to respond to that, please?

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Madam, with all due respect, you are the lead here for Transport Canada. I need to know if you will update that plan. Will you commit to this committee to updating that plan, to providing it? I need to hear that from you as the senior here at the table.

[Anita Biguzs]

Mr. Chair, we do have a human resources plan for civil aviation. We have updated it. It's updated regularly.

In our view, we feel that we do have a sufficient number of inspectors to perform the functions—

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

What is that, number then? What is the sufficient number?

[Anita Biguzs]

We have 881 inspector positions—

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Is that a sufficient number?

[Anita Biguzs]

As Mr. McDonald was saying, because of things like people retiring and attrition, we are even currently now in a process of always looking at recruitment and hiring, trying to make sure that our complement is fully achieved, but we feel that the number we have—880 inspector positions—is sufficient for us to be able to meet the requirements of the program.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Has the Department of Transport and the civil aviation authority provided the Parliamentary Budget Officer with any information regarding budgetary cuts to that particular function, specifically to the inspection function, in the number of personnel? Have you provided that to the Parliamentary Budget Officer?

[Anita Biguzs]

We have responded to the request of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, I believe, as every department has, in terms of the information requested with regard to the reduction measures.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

What did you report to the Parliamentary Budget Officer in terms of the civil aviation authority for cuts?