Public Accounts Committee on March 31st, 2022

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

When we look back at the pandemic—well, we're still in the pandemic—especially during the peaks of the pandemic, we see that ESDC is one of those departments—CRA as well—that is extremely busy, extremely occupied with helping Canadians. That obviously presented a very heavy workload. The focus was on the pandemic and offering and ensuring supports for Canadians.

One might pivot from there to ask a question related to where the focus on temporary foreign workers is considering the fact that ESDC has placed so much attention on ensuring Canadians are supported through the pandemic.

Insofar as being able to deal with this issue of temporary foreign workers, is there a greater space available now in terms of, not a reduced workload, but things being not as grave as they were in the early waves of the pandemic? Is there a greater space now for this issue to be dealt with within the department and for it to be given the attention it deserves?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

All those issues were important. I was not in the department at the time, but I looked at the files. You're right. This is a department that has been working on benefits night and day since the pandemic.

Temporary foreign workers were an important problem and an important issue to address. We have increased the resources significantly to make sure that we are able to tackle some of those issues. We will continue to give a significant importance to the actual program, because we want this program to be successful. We want us, the employers, Canadians, to benefit from this, but we also want the workers who are coming here to actually enjoy and have positive outcomes from their stay in Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have time for a very brief comment.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I'll simply say that, yes, we have seen a challenge here, but it's good to know and heartening to know that steps are being taken to address the matter. Through the pandemic, ESDC was there; you continued to be there, and we will see the progress that's made on this issue. I'm sure this committee will revisit the matter in the coming months.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

I'll now turn the floor over to Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné for two and a half minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to keep talking about outbreak inspections.

According to the report, at the start of the pandemic, there were few or no quarantine inspections. However, as the pandemic progressed, our knowledge improved and provinces were quicker to share information when outbreaks occurred.

Why did it take so long to conduct outbreak inspections?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

As I said earlier, it isn't that we wanted to take our time to conduct the inspections. It's that the workload doubled during that period. Even though we tried to hire more inspectors and train them as quickly as possible, 30% of our employees were leaving each year. As a result, we weren't able to keep up with the demand in a reasonable time frame.

That's why, since then, we've put in place a strategic management of these inspections and strengthened the implementation aspect. We now have enough inspectors to address the issue. If you look at our figures, you'll see that we've significantly reduced the backlog of inspection cases that were active before the pandemic and the backlog of inspection cases that were active during the pandemic.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Mr. Tremblay, could you provide these figures?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

I can ask Ms. Crescenzi to provide more details. I believe that over 3,000 inspection cases were active before the pandemic. We reduced the backlog of inspection cases that were active before the pandemic by 92%. During the pandemic, I believe that the reduction was about 50%.

Mary could probably provide more detail.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Do you have anything to add, Ms. Crescenzi?

[Mary Crescenzi]

I'm sorry. My system was freezing.

I think our deputy has covered it well. We have introduced also system enhancement and administrative—

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Sorry to interrupt you. My question specifically concerned the number of current inspections in the event of a quarantine or an outbreak in temporary foreign worker housing, and not the system in place.

[Jean-François Tremblay]

Where are we with the backlog, Mary?

[Mary Crescenzi]

We have completed over 3,000 inspections by the end of the fiscal period, by last March 24. Of those, we have 1,500 in primary agriculture where there is likely an accommodation component, as many of the accommodation inspections include an accommodation component.

Under quarantine, 65% of those are quarantine inspections. Outbreak inspections are those where there is an outbreak notified and we are working with the province in order to look at compliance. About 104 have been completed to date.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

MP Desjarlais, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses again. I'm not certain if we'll get another round, but thanks for being here. I think it's an important first step to make sure that there's accountability for this work. I'd hate to see the Auditor General's report some years from now repeat these mistakes.

I'm very worried because of the fact that this ministry has been told before by the Office of the Auditor General to do better, and we have seen things get worse, so you have to understand our concern with how the implementation of this is going to go. A commitment is one thing, but there is much more work that has to be done.

There was a mention by Deputy Minister Tremblay regarding the structure itself, the structure being a massive problem. Of course, it is very difficult for any administrator to look at the structure and try to use that vehicle when the vehicle itself is set to a destination that isn't going to work for anybody.

I understand that part, but part of the OAG report.... I have mentioned this in the past about the OAG report, in that it often is lacking the ability to have more nuanced review of these audits. Part of that is to understand some of the structure that you're talking about, Deputy Minister Tremblay. I'd like to see if you could elaborate on some of the structural problems, but in particular, the structural racism that exists within a program like this. When we're talking about temporary foreign workers, it's not uncommon. I've spoken to temporary foreign workers about their experiences with racism, and the fact is that the Auditor General's report has nothing about it here. I've pointed that out in previous Auditor General's reports.

Would you agree that there are issues not just with the structure but with structural racism within the department?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

There is systemic racism in the public service at different levels. I think I would never deny that. I've been working on indigenous issues for years, as you probably know. It is a preoccupation for the senior management table. It is something that we are seeing also on diversity and inclusion as a very avant-garde department, and we will continue to work on this. It is a very important issue. Is there some bias that happens with foreign workers? It's a very legitimate question, which of course we take very seriously.

On your point on commitment, we're not just making commitments. We are actually coming with facts. We're coming with actions and we're—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

To that point, Mr. Tremblay, what action will you take in order to combat structural racism?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm going to stop there, but you will have another round to come back to this.

Mr. Duncan, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Through you, Mr. Chair, I may want to let the Auditor General have an opportunity to respond.

In previous rounds, Mr. Tremblay said that the internal audits perhaps paint a bit of a different picture than the conclusion in your report.

Auditor General, on page 8, you said that you found that the “quality of the department's quarantine inspections worsened during spring and summer 2021....” The department is saying, as a matter of fact, that they believe their internal audits got better and that they stabilized.

Can we get you on record with your view on the conclusion they've drawn, please?

[Karen Hogan]

If I understood Mr. Tremblay's comments correctly, I think he mentioned that his internal audit work post the end of our audit period, which was in June 2021, has demonstrated that there was some improvement.

I do know that during our audit, we did look at some of the internal audits that had occurred. We found that those internal audits had identified similar issues with quality of evidence, just as we found, yet there was no improvement in any of the inspection files that we reviewed. It leads you to believe that oversight mechanisms, while there, were still somewhat ineffective at influencing change.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

I appreciate that. That's helpful. Thank you.

Ms. Hogan, this was mentioned, I believe, in Ms. Bradford's thing, which I raised my eyebrows at, and I want to elaborate on that a bit further.

Somebody mentioned that there's a rule that inspectors can't pre-inspect a workplace or accommodations until temporary foreign workers have arrived.

One of the things Mr. Epp raised in his initial round, which I find interesting, is that you have a role of oversight of the federal government. I understand your scope and your jurisdiction. You have a lot on your plate.

One of the things about this file is that it goes back to the housing standard by province. All three levels of government are involved, to a certain extent, in the temporary foreign workers program and their protections.

Ms. Hogan, do you look at...? It's not your jurisdiction to audit, obviously, provinces or municipalities, but in talking about the flow or efficacy of these programs and oversights, are you concerned in any way that there are multiple layers and that it's confusing for employers? We talk about explaining the rights for temporary foreign workers, and housing is provincial, and getting here is Canadian, and then locally.... Are you concerned at all about that level in terms of efficiency? Can you weigh in on that a little bit?

[Karen Hogan]

That's an area that I think we've been looking at very closely lately, the coordination of jurisdictional issues between the provinces and territories and the federal government.

We didn't target it in this audit when we looked at temporary foreign workers, but it does come up about who sets standards, who has enforcement power and who has regulations. When I sit back and I look at all of this throughout the whole pandemic—and I've said it on many occasions as I've tabled pandemic reports—there is a need for better coordination across jurisdictions.

If the country can't come together in an emergency, we will struggle. It's the time between crises when we need to work at fixing how to share health information better across the country and how to coordinate jurisdictional issues like this when it comes to the health and safety of any Canadian or any person who visits Canada. I do think it's long past due that the issue of temporary foreign workers get addressed, but I do think it's an even broader issue when it comes to better coordination within the federal government and within other layers of government across the country.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

I appreciate that. I agree on that. I'm cautious of the centralization of powers in Ottawa with the federal government, for sure, but I do think.... I'll go back to my example in my previous round of questioning about accommodations for temporary foreign workers. On a national program, somebody arriving and going through an immigration process through ESDC and Agri-Food Canada at a national level.... I don't understand how there couldn't be an agreement on that.

I'll go back and maybe get your comment on this. It's been four years now of trying to negotiate and having conversations and discussions. I'd say to Mr. Tremblay half sarcastically here that I'd send an email around to all your provincial partners saying, “We're going to establish minimum standards next week. If anybody has a problem with running water and electricity being a minimum standard, please let me know by Friday.” In all honesty, this speaks a little bit about the challenge we have of cross-jurisdictions and somebody coming in with—I hate to say—an iron fist and saying, “No, we need to make a decision. Here's a deadline, and here's what the answer is.”

Ms. Hogan, in my summary here, I was talking about—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That was an excellent statement. Thank you very much.

Mr. Dong, you're joining us virtually as well. You have the floor for five minutes.