Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 25th, 2024

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I understand that my colleague has a lot of questions he wants to ask, but I'd like to respectfully remind him that a slight delay is always needed for interpretation. I would ask my colleague to show some respect for that, so we can have simultaneous interpretation and make sure we don't miss anything.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Genuis, we're going to be here for a little bit of time. I expect there's going to be some—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Genuis, you're not the chair. I'm capable of seeing this through.

Mr. Brock, could you just take your foot off the gas just a little bit? I know you want to get as much time in.

Madame Bolduc, I know this is your first time appearing.

I just want to tell the witnesses a couple of things here. The time belongs to the members, so if you are interrupted because they feel your questions are too lengthy or going in a different direction, I'd ask you to just respect their time. I'm going to assume that all of your answers are through the chair, so you don't need to repeat that.

Having said that, you are entitled to take a second to answer the question. Certainly, we're not trying to get into rapid fire here.

Mr. Brock, I just ask that you recognize that there are interpreters here. Having said that, we are familiar with your rapid style. We know it's one that you use effectively.

The floor is yours for three minutes and 40 seconds, please.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Ms. Bolduc, who first contacted you about the CBSA investigation?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

I was contacted by the human resources unit of my department. My understanding is that they were contacted by the investigation of the CBSA.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

When did Michel Lafleur contact you?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the question.

I spoke to Michel Lafleur for the very first time on December 13, 2023.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Were you aware of the exchange of communication between Mr. Lafleur and Ms. Daly leading up to your intervention?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the question.

No. December 13, 2023, was the first time I was made aware of an investigation and—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Hold on. It's my time, ma'am.

Did Mr. Lafleur not inform you that he was communicating with Ms. Daly before he spoke with you?

[Lysane Bolduc]

He informed me for the first time on December 13, 2023.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Okay.

Did he inform you that it was an offer to attend, or an invitation to attend, as opposed to a mandatory requirement? Did he tell you that?

[Lysane Bolduc]

No, he did not tell me that. In fact, I learned it the following day when I spoke to Ms. Daly.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Ultimately, this correspondence goes back and forth between Daly and Lafleur. Lafleur is giving her the impression.... I have the emails and it's clearly an invitation, not a requirement. She says, “No”.

She speaks very highly and positively about the work ethic, the integrity and the character of Mr. Utano and Mr. MacDonald. She doesn't want to get involved. She specifically confirms people have lied at committee. She outs Erin O'Gorman, who we've caught in numerous lies. This is the president of the CBSA, who took it upon herself to lie to a parliamentary committee. She called her out.

She called out Minh Doan, who has also lied throughout numerous committees. You were aware of that, weren't you?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Thank you—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Was that brought to your attention?

[Lysane Bolduc]

I've followed this committee. I've also followed other committees, so I'm aware of what was said at those meetings.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

At the time you got involved, you were actually on vacation. You're actually at least five levels above that of Ms. Daly. Is that right? You're a director general. Ms. Daly is, I believe, an EX-01. Maybe you're an EX-05 or an EX-06, so it's very unusual, because she doesn't report to you. She reports to at least three people between you, and all of a sudden the president of the CBSA is very interested in Ms. Daly, and Deputy Minister Reza is very interested. They asked you specifically to cancel your vacation, get back to Ottawa and put pressure on Ms. Daly to participate in an interview.

That's how it went down, didn't it?

[Lysane Bolduc]

I was not on vacation. I was actually on certified medical leave. The reason I took this call, as I took many other calls during my medical leave, was that my ankle was broken but my head was working—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Speaking of medical issues, you were aware Ms. Daly had been diagnosed with cancer in the fall of 2023. She informed her superiors about that. You knew that going into your intervention, didn't you?

[Lysane Bolduc]

I'd like to go back to the question about my first intervention with Mr. Michel Lafleur. He contacted me on December 13, when he explained to me that, as audits and evaluations have confirmed and documented, there were missing pieces of information [Technical difficulty—Editor] as part of their investigation they wanted to have a witness appear in front of them in order to fill in the gaps.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. That is the time.

Ms. Bradford, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to both of the witnesses for being with us today. I know this is stressful, so we'll try to make it less so.

I'm going to ask a series of questions I hope you could both answer, because I know you have different roles. You covered a lot of things in your opening statement, but it was very quick, so there might be some duplication here.

I'll start with you, Ms. Bolduc, and then Mr. von Schoenberg can answer afterwards.

Could you please tell us a little about your background working in procurement, how long you've worked in the area and where you were employed before your role at PSPC?