Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 30th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I now call the meeting to order.

Good afternoon.

Welcome to meeting number 148 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely by using the Zoom application.

Before we begin, I will ask all in-person participants to remain cognizant of the rules surrounding earpieces. When not using the earpiece, put it on one of the stickers to the left or right. These measures are in place to help prevent audio and feedback incidents. I remind all those in person and online that for the safety of our interpreters, it is very important that your microphone be muted when you are not speaking.

Thank you for your co-operation.

I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is resuming consideration of “Report 6: Sustainable Development Technology Canada” of the 2024 reports 5 to 7 of the Auditor General of Canada.

I would now like to welcome our witness, Mr. Navdeep Bains, who is returning as an individual.

Mr. Bains, you have time for an opening comment of up to five minutes. If you would like to take it, the floor is yours.

[Navdeep Bains, As an Individual]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon.

Mr. Chair, at your request, I made myself available today for a third appearance at committee to answer questions about Sustainable Development Technology Canada. I'm happy to be here and will answer your questions as best I can.

At my last appearance at this committee, there were a number of questions. I want to open today where we left off.

Members posed a question regarding a phone call between Ms. Verschuren and me prior to her appointment. I do not recall such a conversation taking place. However, as I explained last time at committee, it was not uncommon for me to speak to prospective candidates during a selection process or to encourage candidates to apply for positions. Sometimes I encouraged multiple people for the same position. Canadians and our government always benefit from an open, transparent and highly competitive appointment process.

Members also posed questions with respect to the candidates who were recommended to me via a PCO advice letter. As I said in my previous testimony, I've made over 100 Governor in Council appointment recommendations as a minister. I do not recall, after several years, who applied for what specific positions at that time. Assuming there were multiple people recommended for each position, this could be in excess of 400 names recommended to me during my tenure, all of which occurred more than four years ago.

Members also offered a line of questioning regarding former Sustainable Development Technology Canada employee Amber Batool. At CIBC, Ms. Batool worked for Capital Markets and supported the team, including me. I do not recall meeting Ms. Batool before she started at CIBC. In fact, the only reason I know we ever met or crossed paths is because, during the interview, Ms. Batool stated that we had met a few times beforehand, which I did not recall at that time. It is important to note that Ms. Batool went through a rigorous process consistent with CIBC HR policies.

Finally, I would like to address a line of questioning by a few parties with respect to this appointment. At the time of her appointment, Ms. Verschuren's credentials were impeccable. She was a Canadian business leader and served Prime Minister Harper, Minister Flaherty and Minister Paradis in various capacities.

As I stated before, Sustainable Development Technology Canada is an arm's-length organization. My role as minister was to appoint seven of the 15 board members. It was not to oversee the day-to-day operations of the organization, nor was it to manage the board. As an arm's-length organization, it was the board's responsibility to manage their conflicts of interest, as is the case with all designated public office holders, and follow the rules and process, which is something the Auditor General identified as not happening.

As this is my third appearance at committee on this matter, I would like to request this: If, after my appearance, the committee has any additional questions, I would be more than happy to answer them in writing.

I look forward to answering your questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Bains. I appreciate that.

We will open up our first round, which has four members with six minutes each.

Mr. Perkins will lead us off. You have the floor for six minutes.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, former Liberal Minister Bains, for coming back, as you pointed out, for a third time before a parliamentary committee on the issue of SDTC, the Liberal green slush fund.

You're obviously aware that this committee—or at least the majority of the members—did not feel at the end of the last meeting that you were actually making an attempt to answer the questions. We had a long discussion about whether our privilege was breached and we decided, on the suggestion of a number of members, to give you another shot and see how it goes today.

With that in mind, I'm going to ask some questions similar to those I asked before. I appreciate your opening statement.

Before I ask my questions, I just want to get clarification on something. You work at Rogers currently. Could you explain to me what your title and role are, please?

[Navdeep Bains]

Thank you very much again, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to speak here today.

As I've indicated, the topic I was asked to speak to was Sustainable Development Technology Canada, and I look forward to answering questions pertaining to that topic.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Here's the first answer. It was a very simple question that you didn't answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Hold on, Mr. Perkins.

Mr. Bains, you're saying you can't provide your current employment title and location. That does seem a bit unusual. I suspect it's in the public domain.

[Navdeep Bains]

It is in the public domain, Mr. Chair. I look forward to answering questions pertaining to the topic of Sustainable Development Technology Canada today.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

All right, Mr. Bains. I don't know how this is going to go.

Mr. Perkins, you have the floor. You have five minutes left.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I'll take that as your refusal to answer the question about what you do for a living. That's the first refusal.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair, on relevance. I think Mr. Bains has made himself available and has been clear that he is willing and able to answer questions relating to SDTC. I would encourage all members on this committee to restrict their questions to that.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ms. Khalid, as you know, I give members latitude. It seemed like a pretty easy bunt to give a location, but I'm not going to belabour it. We're going to turn things back over to Mr. Perkins.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

On that point, Mr. Chair, can you explain to me how this is relevant to SDTC and how Rogers and SDTC are connected?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I think it's—

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

If you think it's relevant, then say so.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I think it's a courtesy to state where, in fact, someone works. I don't see it as being anywhere remotely out of bounds. However, I think we're—

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Courtesy and relevance are two different matters, Mr. Chair. It can be a courtesy, and Mr. Perkins knows he can google it really quickly.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

It seems combative right off the bat to refuse to answer a question that is in the public domain.

Mr. Perkins, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

That's two refusals. I'll move on.

You mentioned the phone calls to Annette Verschuren. As you know, I asked you about them before. In your opening statement, you said you didn't recall them, which is what you said before. It's hard for me to believe that you don't recall them. The former president of SDTC testified before our committee that you called her twice.

I will ask you now, as I did the last time: Did you call her twice? Answer yes or no.

[Navdeep Bains]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to speak to this. I've answered this question before and I'm glad to have the opportunity to answer it again.

As I stated in my opening remarks, I made over 100 Governor in Council appointments, and I don't recall any specific conversation with Ms. Verschuren. As I've indicated, she applied through the new appointments process and her name was recommended to me.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

You don't recall that you were warned, both by officials and by the president—and I've asked this question before—that she had a conflict of interest and shouldn't be appointed. You don't recall that either.

[Navdeep Bains]

Thank you very much again for that question. Again, I want to answer this for, I think, the third or fourth time and I look forward to providing a detailed answer.

The core issue here is that public office holders must respect the obligations they have to conduct themselves in a manner that respects the Conflict of Interest Act. That applies to Ms. Verschuren and to all public office holders.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

That's four non-answers in a row.

I'll ask the next question, which I asked before. Do you recall seeking $750 million of taxpayer money for the green slush fund from cabinet when you were minister? Answer yes or no.

[Navdeep Bains]

Again, thank you very much, Chair.

As I mentioned last time in my testimony, as I've indicated on a number of occasions, the answer to that question is that all amounts that were allocated to Sustainable Development Technology Canada were debated and presented in the House of Commons and approved by Parliament.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

That's another non-answer.

Again, it's a simple question. Did you seek $750 million from cabinet, which was eventually approved by cabinet, as the minister responsible for SDTC? Did you seek that money? Is it yes or no? It would be difficult for me to believe that you don't remember seeking almost a billion dollars for the Liberal green slush fund.