Evidence of meeting #19 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was million.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Peter Martin  Deputy Commissioner, National Police Services of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
John Brunet  Chief Financial Officer, Canada Firearms Centre
Paul Gauvin  Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Candace Breakwell  Director, Legislative Affairs and ATIP, Canada Border Services Agency

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

I'd like to call this meeting to order.

This is the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. This is our 19th meeting and the orders of the day are to examine the main estimates for 2006-07.

We'd like to welcome the Honourable Stockwell Day to the committee this morning. It is indeed a pleasure to have you with us, sir. We understand you are with us for one hour, so we're going to get on with business here.

As is the usual practice at our committee, we will allow you an opening statement of approximately ten minutes. We're not usually too sticky on that. Then we will begin the questioning, beginning with the official opposition.

You may introduce the rest of the officials with you and carry on.

Thank you very much, and welcome.

9:05 a.m.

Okanagan—Coquihalla B.C.

Conservative

Stockwell Day ConservativeMinister of Public Safety

Thank you, Chairman and colleagues, for your interest in the safety and security of our nation.

That is what this portfolio is charged with. Both I and the Prime Minister often say that the first responsibility of any government is the safety and the security of its citizens, and I can tell you that some 52,000 individuals report under this portfolio. As I travel the country and visit border agencies, corrections institutes, RCMP detachments, our CSIS operations, emergency preparedness places of operation, and the offices and support personnel backing up each one of those organizations, I can say with sincerity that the overwhelming majority of these 52,000 people really do have a sense that when they go to work every day or every night—and this is a seven-day-a-week, around-the-clock operation—that they have, in their own way, something important and viable to do related to the safety of our country and our citizens.

Having said that, I'm certainly open to any questions. I want to give members as much time as possible for questions.

We have 52,000 individuals and a budget, depending upon whether you add in the supplementary estimates, that comes in around the $6 billion mark. It's a significant investment in safety and security.

I understand there's a particular interest related to firearms today by some members.

First let me introduce John Brunet, who is the comptroller for public safety, and when you get down into the minutiae, this man does know it all and faithfully reports it, whether I like it or not. We have Mr. Peter Martin. He is the deputy commissioner of National Police Services. I've asked him to be here, having understood there is some interest in the Firearms Centre. With the RCMP recently taking over that task, he can certainly give updates and be very focused in terms of specific questions you may have to which I may not have answers. Also, we have Mr. Paul Gauvin. He is the deputy commissioner of corporate management and comptrollership, so you will also be able to ask questions more broadly related to the RCMP.

I want to just remind members, Mr. Chairman--and then I'll move directly to questions so that I give as much time as possible to my colleagues to give me questions or advice--when it comes to firearms there are some things to keep in mind. Under our system now, every person who possesses or acquires or wants to possess or acquire a firearm must be licensed, regardless of what the firearm is--restricted or unrestricted. Everyone who has a licence will be recorded in a national database. Information on everyone who has a licence is available to the police forces for their information and for their own security.

Any time somebody wants to assume, acquire, or possess either a firearm or ammunition, they have to produce that licence. That licence is not guaranteed to them for life. They can lose that licence if there is cause, if any firearms officer in any of the provinces thinks that licence should be revoked. Anybody applying for a licence has to go through an extensive background check. If you want to acquire a firearm, for instance, a handgun, that is on a restricted list, the process of licensing is even more extensive. Everybody wanting to acquire a firearm must take a safety course and must also take a course in the safe handling and the safe storage of firearms. Firearms must still be stored, locked, at the place of residence according to government regulations. If you have a restricted firearm, for instance, if you are a sports shooter and you have a handgun, your transportation is restricted in terms of where you can go with that firearm. You must go directly from your home to the gun club of which you must be a member.

Mr. Chairman, we want to focus our resources on the most effective ways of having effective gun control. The Auditor General, year after year, reported significant and in fact at times grotesque waste and inefficiency related to the firearms registry.

This is not an attack on any of the employees who work in those operations. They were dealt a hand and dealt a task that in some ways was impossible for them to maintain.

When it comes to unrestricted long guns, the millions and millions of guns that are out there—shotguns, duck-hunting guns, .22 rifles, .303 hunting rifles, owned primarily by farmers and sport shooters. There are literally millions and millions of them in Canada. The task of trying to record and register every one of those with every single registration number proved to be impossible. The Auditor General herself said the data was not reliable.

We want to direct the funds—our funds, our resources—to the most effective way of gun control. For that reason, we think the emphasis should be on registering every restricted firearm, every prohibited firearm, and every person who wants to own any type of firearm. But to try to match what was at one point to have been close to a billion dollars on a long gun registry of primarily farmers and sport shooters, which proved to be impossible, was not the most effective way to do this. The data was not reliable, said the Auditor General.

Mr. Chairman, we want to focus on reducing tragedies with firearms. We want to focus on those people who would be at risk in even having a firearm. We want to stop people from having firearms who shouldn't have them. There has been, unfortunately, on the expense side a focus on the area where we're having the least or almost no problem, and that is the farmers, the duck hunters, with these millions and millions of unrestricted firearms.

Just as an example, Mr. Chairman, in the year 2003 there were 549 homicides in Canada. Two of those were committed by somebody using an unrestricted long arm—two of them. So here we had the majority of our resources, hundreds of millions of dollars, being directed to half of 1% of the problem, when on the other hand we have a huge number of problems with handguns being used in crimes. That's an area where we have to increase our focus—gang activity and illegal smuggling of firearms.

I share these with you in closing, Mr. Chairman, to remind Canadians that we are very aggressive. In the days ahead, because of what we've learned through the tragedy at Dawson College and in other incidents, we want to and I think we can make our system even stronger and even better in having alert systems in place whereby we can see and perhaps stop somebody who should not be in possession of a firearm from doing something that is wrong.

We will continue to focus on that, on an enhanced registration process and enhanced activity related to smuggling of firearms. We have prevention programs into the millions and millions of dollars, which are going out into our communities right now for youth at risk, for gang activity. That's where we want our focus to be.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and colleagues, for your attention to this. I'm open to any questions or advice you may have. Of course, this isn't limited just to firearms. Any questions at all under the area of public safety, I'll try my best to answer. If I don't have the information or can't get it to you today, I will get it to individuals as soon as possible.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

As you said at the end of your remarks here, this is not limited just to the firearms issue. We can examine all of the other issues as they are listed on our order paper today.

I've always had a very special interest in this file, however, and I would love to ask questions, but as chair of this committee I will try to restrain myself.

For the first round, we'll begin with the Liberal Party, with Mr. Holland, for seven minutes, please.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Minister and other witnesses, for appearing before the committee today.

I'm going to start with the words of Hayder Kadhim, who was injured during the Dawson shooting. He said that the idea of abandoning a gun registry is senseless. Let me just follow up with a couple of items I want to discuss.

I don't disagree, Minister, that there were problems in the past. I sat on the public accounts committee in the previous Parliament and had the Auditor General before our committee, talking about those past problems. The reality is that the program is working today.

And here are a few other realities. All types of gun deaths, whether homicides, suicides, or accidents, have declined since the registry was brought into force. Death rates involving handguns and long guns are down. The police support the registry. On average, more than 5,000 queries are made daily. Almost 16,000 firearm licences have been refused or revoked since the Firearms Act came into force. More than 5,000 affidavits have been provided by the Canadian firearms registry to support the prosecution of firearms-related crimes in court proceedings across this country.

When we take a look at the cost today, the reality is that the cost of registering weapons is only $15.7 million a year. On the idea that long guns don't play a role, let me just quote the president of the Canadian Professional Police Association, who said on May 16, “Our last six or seven police officers were killed with long guns.”

The reality is that they do represent a risk, so when we have had the success that we have had with this program, I'm trying to understand why the focus would not be on eliminating irritants, on making the program more efficient. Why the interest or why the unceasing push to try to kill this program? Is it ideologically driven? What's the reason why you want to see this program killed when it has been such a success?

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Which program are you referring to that you say has been killed?

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

I'm talking about removing long guns from the registry.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

When we talk about killing the program, I think it's really important for our citizens not to think we are killing the gun registry or that we are killing the licensing requirements. In fact, we are not. We're making the program stronger.

One aspect of the program has proven to be incredibly expensive, to the point of incredible waste—I'm just referring to the Auditor General's findings—and it has not been successful in its goal. The goal of registering every duck hunter's gun, every farmer's shotgun, every gopher gun across the country, has been unsuccessful. With the number of mistakes that have been made, the impossibility of trying to get registration numbers, and the impossibility of trying to get the correct calibres of millions and millions of long arms, it has been an exercise in futility. That narrow aspect of the gun registry has proven not to be successful.

When you talk about a crime committed with a firearm, in the instances when a long gun was used, if the system itself had been working properly—not the registration system, but the actual system—there's a strong possibility that disaster could have been avoided. One case in point would be the tragic killing of a police officer last year in the province of Quebec. In that particular case, as the officer was approaching the door, the person inside shot through the door with a registered high-powered rifle and killed her. The bullet pierced her armour protection.

Upon investigation, what was very frustrating and agonizing was the fact that this person had committed crimes for which that long gun should have been removed. As a matter of fact, he had a prohibition order. He had been ordered not to own, not to be in the possession of, a firearm. Subsequent to that, he appealed. He went before a judge and he asked if he could please have that firearm because he liked to hunt, and if he could just have it during the hunting season. The judge allowed a criminal who had been prohibited from having a firearm to get his gun back.

This is why I'm talking about limiting the possibility of the wrong people getting firearms. One of our proposals is that if you have had that type of conviction, that is it. You can't go before a judge. We will word it in such a way that a judge is not able to give a dangerous person back his long gun.

That's why we say that hundreds of millions of dollars were used—probably well intended—to go into an area where there is comparatively so little criminal activity. As one of our proposals on the table in the House of Commons, we have said that crimes with guns should have a mandatory sentence with them, yet we can't get the Liberal Party to support us on that.

9:15 a.m.

An hon. member

That's not true.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Well, I'm afraid, gentlemen, that three of the four people on this committee did not even vote to support that. Why not?

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Well, I think, if we could go back—

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

But could I just...? I'm really curious as to why not.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

I want to know, first of all, when you're talking in this particular instance about an individual using a long gun to commit a crime, what possible rationale would dictate in this scenario that we would have been better off not having a registry? I think the argument has just been made that it needs to be more effectively used or that we need to be tougher on those individuals who are getting these guns. The fact of the matter is, whether or not it's in domestic situations or elsewhere, the vast majority of crimes are not premeditated—oftentimes they are first-time offences—and that when weapons are in a home there is a much greater likelihood of violence occurring.

And it is very helpful for the police to know a weapon is there. I used to be on the Durham Regional Police Services Board, and I can tell you that the program was a vital resource for us.

And these comments—

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Could you just get to the question?

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Just to get to a question, if you could go back, you're quoting from the Auditor General. But, Minister, the Auditor General has come before the public accounts committee in the last year and said that the system as it's running today is running very well, and that there are some areas where it can be improved, but she is not describing things as you're describing them. You're describing something that historically may have been there, but it certainly isn't there today. The reality is that scrapping this program, by the most ambitious estimates, would save $10 million.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

I'm going to have to cut you off there, sir.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

So the question is, if we're only going to save $10 million by cutting it, and it's been demonstrated in every statistic you can find that it saves lives, why cut it, Mr. Day?

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Thank you.

I really think, for the good of the public, we need to stop using the phrase, “scrapping the program”. We're making the gun registration system even stronger. One of the things we are doing to make it stronger is not requiring the farmers, the duck hunters, and others with unrestricted firearms to go through the impossible process of registering those at a cost of millions of dollars. There have been great improvements made in the system, and Deputy Commissioner Peter Martin can talk about them. The fact is, using 2003 figures, half of 1% of the homicides were committed with a long gun.

Why do you not support us in terms of wanting mandatory sentences for people who commit crimes with any kind of gun? We can't get the Liberals to support it. Three of the four Liberals on this committee wouldn't vote to support us on that. The Liberals say, farmers, let's go after them, but to criminals, let's back off. I'm asking for some honest advice here. Why do you not support that? Why do you not support going after criminals?

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you. We'll now go over to the Bloc.

Monsieur Ménard.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Minister, you say that the firearms registry is incomplete and that the Auditor General stated that it was unreliable because it was incomplete. Nevertheless several million long guns are now entered in this registry. What are you going to do with these registrations?

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

The information is still there, and the RCMP will decide whether it wants to continue using it. But the fact is clear: the Auditor General said that the data are not reliable...

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

I’m sorry, Mr. Minister, but we have only seven minutes left.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

The information is there...

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

I know what you said and you don’t need to repeat it to me.

I asked you a simple question and you gave me a simple answer: you’re keeping the information. The arms that were registered remain in the registry, and the police can access the information if the RCMP says so. Is that right?

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

My answer was very clear. I said that it would be up to the RCMP to decide whether the information is good or not. It is up to the RCMP to decide, not me.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

When you announced your policy, you also said that you were going to restore registration of unrestricted firearm purchased by gunsmiths, didn’t you? You said that gunsmiths would handle these registrations...