Public Safety Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2006

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

Yes, Mr. Ménard.

The key bit of information that's contained in the registry relates to people, where they're located, addresses, and that's part of the licensing program, so it's very important that we have critical information on who is licensed to own and possess a firearm.

When it comes to the determination of information around long guns, a law enforcement agency cannot keep information on citizens willy-nilly. We're governed by the laws of Canada, by the Privacy Act, and what information we contain in the registry will be determined partly by the legislation and what we are allowed to keep. Information we are allowed and permitted and mandated to keep, we will keep, and we will take steps to make sure that information is current and up to date.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Certainly you’re allowed to keep it, since the minister tells you that it’s up to you to decide.

If a police officer who found a registered long gun on the scene of a crime turns to your services to find out who the legitimate owner of this arm is, are you going to tell him?

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

If we are permitted to keep that information, yes.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

You don’t know yet whether you’ll be allowed to keep the old registrations or whether you will discard them?

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

To the first part of your question, that's correct. About information being discarded, again, we cannot keep any information we just want to keep on any Canadian citizen. There are certain rights and privileges around privacy. If we are not able to maintain that information, then definitely, we would have to purge it out of the system.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

What a waste!

Now, Mr. Minister, you propose to arm customs officers. This means that a lot of people will have to be trained pretty quickly.

You have no doubt been informed that the École nationale de police du Québec, located in Nicolet, is prepared to provide this training to as many officers as you’d like, and I think that you yourself recognize that there are people at that school who are qualified to give this training.

I also know that the number of officers requiring training is so high that the RCMP is incapable of providing it, within a reasonable length of time, to all the officers who will need it.

Do you intend to use the services offered by the École nationale de police du Québec?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

There have been discussions with the staff at the École nationale de police du Québec.

I said that we wanted to use the most effective method for training our customs officers because we want the customs officers of the Canada Border Services Agency to eventually be able to train other officers themselves.

I do not know whether the decision to use the very qualified people at Nicolet has been made, but I acknowledge that there have been discussions.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I note in the budget that you have reduced expenses for Aboriginal corrections. May I ask why you are reducing them?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Could you give me the precise reference?

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

On page 431, it talks about “Payments to the provinces, territories, municipalities, Indian band councils and recognized authorities representing Indians on reserve...”. This is under “Community Safety and Partnerships”. These payments go from $92 million to $78 million. Why this reduction?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Minister, you won't find that in your documents. I believe he's on the Internet. You're not going to be able to cross-reference that.

I guess we'll have to come back to that.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I think Monsieur Brunet can help with that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Go ahead, Monsieur Brunet.

[John Brunet, Chief Financial Officer, Canada Firearms Centre]

I don't have the specific reference in front of me, but I believe you're referring to Public Safety's main estimates. If you are, the difference is related to the amount of money that we transfer to the RCMP to do first nations policing on behalf of the aboriginal communities. It was simply a change in the way that amount was accounted for. Previously it was in our main estimates as contribution money. Through the year we would transfer it to the RCMP to fund the additional first nations policing that they do on behalf of the department.

In this year's main estimates, the amount was actually shown as operating expenses as opposed to contributions. There has not been a decrease in the first nations policing program writ large. It's just a matter of how it's reflected within the main estimates as it relates to the RCMP services provided.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

There were supplementary estimates of $25.7 million

under first nations policing services. So I don't think there was a decrease.

If you can send me that, I'll try to connect those dots for you, but I see an increase here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Minister, could we ask you for another couple of minutes, please, just to complete this round?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Okay, but if the government falls because I'm not on duty, then we'll know what happened here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Norlock, could you perhaps wrap this up, please?

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

I'll try to make this as succinct as possible, but it may not be.

My interest, quite frankly, is directly related to the RCMP as a result of some of the questions yesterday with SIRC and further meetings of this committee with regard to the information flow in the Arar case. Some disconnects and some problematic instances were observed by me and other committee members. It specifically relates to SIRC's attendance here yesterday and my discussion with them with regard to best practices as shared by sister agencies in the international community.

One of the differences between Canada and many other international bodies is the fact that there is a lack of a parliamentary oversight committee and the overall numbers of agencies that have information, and also how that information flows from one to the other.

Mr. Minister, has the government--cabinet in particular, if it's possible to discuss it—given consideration to a parliamentary oversight committee that would be sworn to secrecy and that would ensure that, for our agencies dealing with public safety and specifically national security, there is an oversight body of elected civilians who can oversee the total operation of government?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Chairman, I can tell you that we respect the work done by this committee and others on that particular area. It has been a commitment of ours, a commitment of the Prime Minister, that we will eventually have in place an oversight capability of some sort. I want to look at the significant work done by this committee. Mr. Comartin and others have spent a lot of time on that.

We're also waiting at this point, as Justice O'Connor has said he's going to be reflecting on that and we know he has a subsequent report coming out. So I don't want to move ahead. But as soon as we have his reflections, I want to engage this committee and others in terms of what type of oversight will best serve the security needs of Canadians, but also make sure that our privacies are protected.

I'll just close by saying there was an international report released this morning--forgive me if the name slips me right now--that rated countries around the world in terms of their respect for the privacy of information. Of all the countries listed, Canada came second in terms of its respect for and handling of private information.

So I just leave that as a final thought, and I'll be looking forward to working with this committee in terms of what type of oversight committee will best protect Canadians.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Norlock, you may continue your questioning of the officials. The minister will have to leave.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

This question again is related to the RCMP. The Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP provides civilian oversight on police conduct. Financial resources of the commission are approximately $6.5 million for 2006-07, and the commission's priorities include business improvement, outreach, and improvement in management. Do you anticipate any changes or challenges on the part of the commission for public complaints as a result of any recommendations already made by Justice O'Connor in the context of the Arar commission?

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

I believe when the commissioner appeared before the committee a few weeks ago he had already mentioned that the organization is in the process of implementing a number of recommendations out of the O'Connor commission.

We are constantly looking to improve our performance in all aspects. Under the current regime we have implemented a very comprehensive accountability framework. Our financial situation in the RCMP in terms of accountability and how we manage the organization is the best it has been in a long period of time.

There will always be public complaints. I believe we have a very healthy relationship with the public complaints commission, and we continue to cooperate with them in every way we can.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

If I can just carry on a little further with regard to how you intend to improve your accountability specifically in regard to some of the problems identified in the O'Connor commission, I can recall my question to the commissioner when he sat before this committee and indicated that you were going through some internal policy changes and procedures.

My observations, with all due respect to you and to the commissioner, would be the following. And again it's because I care so much about the reputation of police forces. They must ensure, to the best of their ability, to always be above the type of criticisms that O'Connor has identified.

I related to the commissioner, looking at other similar agencies not only within Canada but externally with a view to best practices--and I guess I'm going to be very specific here--wouldn't it be a good idea, as part of that process when you're developing those processes and changes in policy, that you access the opinion of sister agencies in Canada? I would specifically suggest, because of the realities of Canada, that one of those agencies be the Sûreté du Québec and one other large agency in Canada.

That's a suggestion, and I'm asking, Deputy Commissioner, for your opinion on just such an idea.

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

We are constantly looking at best practices around the country and around the world. One of the great things about Canada is that there's a tremendous amount of expertise within the law enforcement community, within public safety organizations, and we partner with them wherever we can. We look to better ways of doing things.

One of the great things about being a member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police is that we have a presence everywhere in Canada, and we have an opportunity to work with a broad range of organizations that bring a lot to the table.

With regard to final decisions on policy and where we go, that obviously is a decision that will come from the commissioner himself. I know he is eagerly awaiting the opportunity to meet with this committee again, and you may want to address that with him when he does appear.