Public Safety Committee on Nov. 5th, 2009

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Will more people in jails due to mandatory minimums, etc., help or hinder the situation?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Go ahead. Just a brief response.

[D/Commr Marc-Arthur Hyppolite]

It would present additional challenges. Obviously we would have to enhance our capacity to address those needs based on the demands we identify through assessment and identification indices after the intake assessment. The computerized assessment tools will help us do the screening too.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

Mr. Norlock, please, for five minutes. Then Ms. Mourani has made a request to ask questions also.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'll refrain from any cheap political shots.

I'd like to ask a couple of questions.

The first question will be to Mr. Hyppolite. I don't want to call it the typical profile, because that's not where I'm going, but would I not be correct that generally speaking the federal correctional institutions are about the last stop for many of these people? In other words, they began with treatment programs in the community, whether it be AA or addictions. Then, through some issues at the school they may have received family counselling. Then if they are generally engaged in criminal activity, they would go on to a provincial institution, because the offences may be a first offence, second offence, maybe more minor in nature. The federal corrections are about the last stop. Would that be a fair assessment, or are there some other types of profile there?

[D/Commr Marc-Arthur Hyppolite]

To illustrate what you said, if we take aboriginal offenders, for example, basically we are at the receiving end of the issue. Most of the issues are not only multi-faceted—multidimensionnel, comme on dit en français—but they are also very complex. They are societal issues that require a concerted effort.

We usually receive the offender with a multiplicity of issues. You have issues of under-employment and low levels of education. Sometimes there is a social history that includes sexual abuse, domestic violence, substance abuse issues. You have issues of mental health, PTSD. And now it is further complicated by the proliferation of gangs. Many in this community are diverted by the influence of gangs.

When we receive these individuals in our system, we have to compose a multi-disciplinary team to develop the proper correctional planning and interventions to address the needs of the offender. It's not only done within the institutional setting, it's done as part of a continuum of care when they return to the community as well. We have demonstrated that the more we program them in the community, the less likely they are to reoffend and return to our system.

In addition to many of the interventions we have, we provide eight core correctional programs for aboriginal offenders. These include a basic healing program; living skills; circle of change; a high-intensity aboriginal family program, In Search of Your Warrior, which is a violence prevention program; and Spirit of the Warrior, which is a violence and addictions program, as well. We have a program for sex offenders that is related to the Inuit; an aboriginal offender substance abuse program, which is an addictions program specifically designed and culturally sensitive to aboriginals; and an aboriginal women's maintenance program, which is an after-care program in the community.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Are the programs you are referring to delivered under the Pathways program? Having visited it, I know the prison in my area has just built a separate unit specifically for first nations people. I'm referring to Warkworth Institution. I'm advised it is beginning to have the largest number of aboriginal Canadians there. I was there for the opening, and of course some of the local chiefs and elders from the various first nations territories around the prison were there.

I wonder if Ms. Allgaier could talk about whether there is a Pathways program, and does it encompass all of that?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

There's time for about a 30-second response.

[Lisa Allgaier]

I'll be fast.

Pathways, just for clarification, isn't a program; it's an intervention. The programs Mr. Hyppolite just mentioned are actual correctional programs that are part of Correctional Service programs or a healing plan. The Pathways units were established very quickly, largely but not only for aboriginal offenders who wish to follow aboriginal healing to address their issues—mental health, addictions, and other historical or family issues—more intensively. Pathways unit is a place where it's intended to offer far more intensive healing and intervention for a number of offenders. There is one at Warkworth as well as at a number of other institutions.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Thank you.

Now it's Madame Mourani, for cinq minutes, s'il vous plait.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, everyone, and thank you for being here.

Mr. Hyppolite, you talked about programs. The Correctional Service invests 2% of its budget in programs. I would like you to tell me about the waiting times by program and by institution as well as inmate access to those programs. If you don't have the figures with you, I would like you to forward them to the committee later.

[D/Commr Marc-Arthur Hyppolite]

I promise to provide you with the details on waiting times by institution and by program.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I'd also like to have the figures for women and for men.

[D/Commr Marc-Arthur Hyppolite]

In its two-year reintegration plan, the Correctional Service acknowledges the utility and essential nature of programs. When an inmate arrives at intake, he is taken in and an intake assessment is conducted. That inmate's needs are evaluated in "criminogenic" terms and in terms of employment. A correctional plan is then developed, and that's when the necessary referrals are made.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I'm very familiar with the process.

[D/Commr Marc-Arthur Hyppolite]

Of course there are more requests than what we can offer.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Knowing that there are a lot of requests and that programs are essential, why invest only 2% of your budget? Those programs are part of the CSC's mission. Why not invest 5%, 10% or 20% in programs, particularly since you say there is a shortage of professionals.

[D/Commr Marc-Arthur Hyppolite]

The largest part of the Correctional Service's budget goes to fixed costs.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

It goes to security.

[D/Commr Marc-Arthur Hyppolite]

We've made submissions to the Treasury Board and, under the transformation agenda, received additional funding that we've just reinvested in programs. Our three-year plan has just been approved about two months ago. We intend to invest more, up to $5 million next year and $5 million the following year. We have up to three years to invest directly in programs, including employment. We've just developed an employment strategy for inmates and aboriginal offenders.

In the transformation context, we've just restructured the architecture of our program. We've just done what we call an integrated correctional program. It's a program intended for everyone, but if an offender, for one reason or another, has not finished his program and is transferred to another institution, the modules he has not completed can follow him. That will lower the drop-out rate and increase the percentage of people who complete their programs, as well as our ability to offer the program to a much larger number of individuals requesting it. We're currently carrying out a pilot project in the Pacific Region to validate this new program, which is complete and comprehensive, and which is intended for everyone.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Let's take, for example, the Regional Mental Health Centre, the RMHC. Inmates can come from other penitentiaries across the country. They are assessed and transferred to treatment wings. When treatment is completed, the inmate is placed in a transfer wing before returning to his or her initial penitentiary.

How much time elapses between the transfer of inmates to a transfer wing, where they receive no programs, and the moment they return to their initial penitentiary, whether it be the RMHCs or all the correctional centres of that kind in Canada? I'd like you to submit a document on that.

[D/Commr Marc-Arthur Hyppolite]

Yes, I can provide that document to you. That's not a problem.

However, you should know that, in the mental health treatment centres, there is an institutional head who manages the institution and, at the same time, a clinical director. When the doctor treating the individual refers that individual to the centre, the two heads must talk to each other, and the admission must be done by the clinical director of that centre.

This requires a great deal of mobility and speed. I imagine a bed must be ready and a treatment plan also has to be developed. So, clinically, it's not complicated, but it's at least complex.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I'm going to tell you why I'm asking these questions.

It has been brought to my attention that these inmates sometimes stay in these transfer wings for a very long time, not necessarily for clinical reasons. Instead it's because they're not wanted in their initial penitentiaries or because the presence of certain inmates in transfer wings must be justified from a capacity standpoint.

I would also like to understand why inmates can sometimes stay in transfer wings for a year without being able to take any programs. I would like that to be explained to me, because if two heads have to talk to each other and it takes them a year to do that, something is very definitely wrong, I can tell you that. Oh, oh!

[D/Commr Marc-Arthur Hyppolite]

If patients stay in transfer wings for a long time because no one wants them, that's unacceptable.

However, you should know that, under the policy, it is the referring institutional head who has the last word when a transfer is made. The fact that the other person is less open and receptive does not necessarily mean that the final decision of the transferring head can't be made, obviously, in a secure manner for the institution, employees and other inmates. If an inmate presents a risk that is beyond people's ability to manage that risk, they will be obviously acting with a great deal of precaution. It's not necessarily... [Editor's note: inaudible].

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

We have to wind it up here. I would like to thank our witnesses for coming.