Public Safety Committee on March 25th, 2010

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

What is its name, and can we have it? I'd like you to highlight exactly where in that document...and what you're relying on for the shutdown of the farms.

[Ross Toller]

Strategic review documents are not accessible to the public.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

I am asking as a member of this committee for you to produce the document to the committee so that we can read it and then have you re-attend so we can question you on it.

[Ross Toller]

I don't have the authority to release that document.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Okay. That's something we'll deal with by way of a vote.

In terms of your presentation, you indicate:

The experience and skills obtained from working on the farms has been valuable, however, the decision to close the remaining farms was based on the fact that offenders were not gaining the maximum employability skills through agriculture.

During your oral remarks you focused on agriculture, yet we know the offenders get skills in terms of milk production, machine operation, training in mechanics, production of well-maintained milking cattle from birth, welding--there's so much. You'll agree with me they obtain so many other skills. They may not be to full completion. They may not be certified to be welders, but they do obtain other skills through this program, not just in terms of agriculture. Correct?

[Ross Toller]

I'd say every job an inmate--

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Time for a brief response.

[Ross Toller]

An inmate does learn skills in every job, but at the end of that, availability for employment is stronger in certain areas than others.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Ms. Brown.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for being witnesses.

I too am a visitor to this committee today, but I do have some questions I would like to ask.

Until October of 2008 I ran a company that specializes in disability management, and we have worked with some major corporations across Canada putting return-to-work programs in place for them, focusing on rehabilitating injured workers, and getting them back into the workplace. So although what we're doing is not exactly the same, because we're dealing with physically disabled people, there are some principles that I think apply in this case.

What we have seen in our work is that if a person is put back into a job where they are earning less income than they were in their previous employment, the rate of re-injury is much higher and there's much more potential for them to end up on benefits once again. So in our work we try, whether it's through retraining or reorganization or new ergonomic equipment, to help that person back into a place of employment where they are returned to their previous full income.

Would you agree that having a person earning a profitable income significantly lessens the likelihood of them re-offending?

[Ross Toller]

Yes. I mentioned that when you look at close to 70% of the intake of our inmate population that come to us with unstable work histories, part of our mandate is to provide programs that will help to keep them from re-offending. Employment that offers steady available income is without question supportive of reintegration.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Right now, in Ontario—and that's where the majority of my work has been done in this field—in the construction trades, and I'm going to pick up a little bit on what Mr. McColeman was saying, we have a demand in the market, which is one of the reasons why there are so many people who are emigrating to Canada. Right now, the average age of drywallers in Ontario is 57 years of age and the average age of plumbers is 53 years of age, which means there is going to be a tremendous demand.

If I just look up here on my BlackBerry, under skilled industry and manufacturing, I find: bricklayers, an average hourly rate for income, $21.92; carpenters, $17.93; electricians, $18.66; labourer, construction and helpers, $16.57; plasterers or drywallers, $21.58; and plumbers, $24.56. This is an hourly wage that people who have attained the skills and the paperwork can claim; they can go out to the street and say, “I'm qualified. I am eligible to earn $21.58 per hour.”

Would you say it is a reasonable expectation for someone who you have trained in these employment opportunities that you're providing that they would be able to command this kind of a wage?

[Ross Toller]

I think it's a very reasonable expectation. It's why we work very closely right now with the trades association to have our hours of apprenticeship marketable, transposable, so that the hours that are being learned inside the correctional institutions are hours that will count towards their certification in the future.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Are you providing the assistance for a person who has gained those skills? Are you providing the bridging or the transition, and helping them find employment?

[Ross Toller]

This is where the community aspect really comes in. I mentioned a bit earlier, I believe, the example of Lac La Ronge. The idea of having work releases...this is where the community can really respond in terms of inmates in minimum security who are eligible for work release to go out and work on projects. We've done it in other situations with Habitat for Humanity; we've done it on restoration types of projects. Any available employment that moves the skills into the community is really a strong part of our mandate. And in a scenario where our commissioner has challenged all of us across the country to find stronger partnerships with communities, it can aid us in this endeavour.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

So you're building agreements with these employers.

[Ross Toller]

Exactly.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

There's accountability both ways.

[Ross Toller]

Yes.

In fact, in one of the situations I can speak to in Ontario, one of the contracts we have that does give transposable skills or apprenticeship types of skills actually will call for the utilization of inmate labour in that particular process.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Thank you.

With the indulgence of the committee, I'll pose my questions for my round here, from the chair, if that's okay. Otherwise, I can have Mr. Davies replace me as a second vice-chair.

Do I have the permission of the committee to pose the questions from here?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Thank you.

I've got to watch my own clock here.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Chairman, I'd like to be in the chair.

I'm teasing.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

You would have done a fine job.

If I could, I'm going to make a bit of a statement here up front. Let's be straight. I've had an opportunity to visit almost every single federal facility across this country. I've had an opportunity to visit almost every program that the Correctional Service offers. Without question, the farm program is the best one that I've seen. But here is the thing that irks me. There's another standard applied to this program that isn't applied to any other program. When I walk in and see inmates building birdhouses, no one asks, “How many of them go and get jobs building birdhouses?” When I go and watch inmates who are sweeping floors, nobody asks, “How many of them get jobs sweeping floors?” When I go and look at a literacy program, which, believe me, I support and it needs to be done, no one asks, “How many of them go and write books?” This is, to me, an absolutely ridiculous standard that's applied to no other program in corrections.

So my question--or not even a question, but I'll put it in the form of a statement and then move on to a question. When comparing programs, we need to compare program to program, employment to employment. What we've been told today is that we don't have those statistics. We can't say that for those who take this vocational program there is this rate of employment; for those who take the prison farm program there is this rate of employment. For those inmates who I saw sewing pockets--a worthy job for the military because they're sewing pockets onto things that are going to go to Afghanistan--what's their rate of employment when they come out of that program? Why this standard for this program? It makes no sense.

The second point I will make is with respect to recidivism. The principal mandate of the Correctional Service of Canada is to ensure that when people come out they don't reoffend, that they get better. What all the leading-edge research from across the world is telling us is that there is nothing better, that the process of working with another life--animal husbandry, farming--is demonstrated to breed empathy, to help in the rehabilitation process. We've been using this prison farm program at the end, right before inmates leave.

To hear the stories.... Mr. Easter tells a story of inmates who had a cow with foot rot, which would under normal circumstances be put down, but those inmates refused to let that animal be put down because they had developed such a bond for it. To look into the eyes of the men who have gone through this program and see the change they talk about in their lives, the difference it has made to them, sir, I have to submit to you that it breaks my heart to see this being done to this program. It absolutely breaks my heart.

[Applause]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Mark Holland) With respect to the costing, we're told that it costs somewhere in the neighbourhood of $4 million to continue the prison farm program. It's going to be replaced; we don't know exactly with what—some vocational programming and other things. Those things are going to have costs obviously associated with them.

There was an incorrect statement made here earlier with respect to where we source it. We don't know that it's going to be Canada. It's subject to NAFTA, so it could be coming from Mexico; it could be coming from the United States. We have no idea where this stuff is going to be coming from.

Show me the costs. Can you give me a breakdown of what the new programs are going to cost and what the old program cost? Give me an apple-to-apple comparison here.