Public Safety Committee on March 25th, 2010

[An hon. member]

Rhetoric.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Order. I know there's a lot of enthusiasm, but we do have to try to maintain order. Thank you.

[John Sargent]

As I said, the total cost for running the farms in that particular year was $4 million, and among the number of people we placed in jobs through our community employment coordinator system, 14 of them did get jobs in agriculture. I couldn't comment on where other people went.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

That's $4 million for farms, and 14 people finished. That's $285,000 per job placement for 14 people.

And when we look at the 2,560 and the amount you talked about, which was a little higher than what I had foreseen, it's more along the lines of about $36,000 per job placement. Is that correct?

[John Sargent]

As I said, the total operating cost for the year was $5 million, and then we have the various job placements, as Mr. Toller introduced earlier. We placed 476 people in the construction trades, we placed 367 people as general installers/repairers--

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

I don't want you to go through the list, only because I have about 30 seconds left.

But it's clear that if we look at value for these offenders to successfully gain tools to get a job, that is $285,000 compared to.... And you can do the math later, but I've done the math. It's about $36,000, which is substantial. And again, I want to give them the best opportunity.

I learned French in a French program. I would never, ever take away the fact that while I was learning French, I also learned to study properly. I learned a number of valuable things: to be able to communicate with others, to be able to be punctual, to be able to be tolerant, to be patient. I've learned that punctuality, I've learned that patience, I've learned those linkages, but I would never go to a Chinese language course to learn French.

I want to give these offenders the best possible opportunity, and I don't think we're doing it with the farms.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Mr. Carrier, you have five minutes.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I have any time left, I will be sharing it with my colleague.

Ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon. I salute Mr. Sargent, who is CORCAN's Chief Executive Officer. We have some of this organization's institutions in my riding, in Laval, but we do not have any farms.

According to your information, CORCAN runs no farms in Quebec. There must certainly be an explanation to this, but we have questions, such as those put to you by my colleague. Indeed, we see that CORCAN purchases eggs and dairy products for Quebec from CORCAN in Ontario.

If you stop running these farms, are you prepared to commit to launching calls for tenders in the Quebec region? Indeed, Quebec produces a lot of eggs and dairy. I think this is a specific question to which you might be able to respond today.

[Pushkar Godbole]

We are required to follow the government tendering process, and through that tendering process farmers and others in Quebec will have an opportunity to bid. It goes out through the MERX system. Who gets the contract and who wins is based on the best value and the best price in the tender.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

Given that the closing of the farm program is giving rise to much agitation among those who use it, has Correctional Service Canada consulted and informed the inmates who participate in it with regard to the replacement programs you will be offering them, programs that could be as good or perhaps better with regard to employability?

[Ross Toller]

Again, I would point out that we are just starting the process for replacement. A number of these items require seeking opportunities that exist. As these become more realistic and advance, certainly without question we will be talking with inmates about replacement jobs. Some discussions are under way as we speak, but we're too early in the process to be able to completely communicate all the different things we're going to do. As I've said, sometimes it takes time to get further contracts. We still have to work with some trade schools, but inmates will, without question, be provided opportunities for employment.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

You are aware that there were major demonstrations on the part of the parents of inmates in Ottawa, because they are very concerned by the abolition of the program. It seems to me that it would be in your interest to as quickly as possible inform the people of the replacement options.

[Ross Toller]

Okay.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

You agree with that?

[Ross Toller]

Okay.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Yes, thank you. I will give the time I have left to Ms. Mourani.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you.

I would like to come back to your numbers, Mr. Sargent. I hope that I am pronouncing your name correctly?

You talked of the cohort of inmates working on prison farms. You stated that upon their leaving, 14 of them wound up working on farms. In what sector did the others find jobs exactly? Have you done an analysis of this cohort?

[John Sargent]

No, we do not track separately the workers on the farms or in our manufacturing production sites, our services, or our construction services. These numbers represent the offenders who have utilized the services of the CORCAN employment coordinators who are out in the community assisting the offenders to get jobs.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

You therefore have no detailed information with regard to those who worked on the prison farms and who, upon their discharge, found work, be it on a farm or in another sector. Do you have the numbers?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

You have time for a very quick answer.

[John Sargent]

We don't track the people from the different programs out into the community separately. It's purely just what jobs they've found.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

In that case, how can you determine that these prison farms must be shut down if you have no analysis, no follow-up as to what happened on the outside?

[John Sargent]

Based on the information we have and where the people are finding the jobs, we will be looking at alternate employment opportunities and training opportunities such as the previously mentioned experience that the offenders at Riverbend Institution got. They were building community housing and were able to work towards their certification and receive apprenticeship hours for working on that type of project. We know that the construction trades are the best area for our offenders to get employment.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Merci beaucoup.

Now we'll go to Mr. McColeman for five minutes, please.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

I too would like to express my gratitude to the witnesses here today. Thank you for spending some time. I've got several directions I'd like to go in and not much time.

The first question is for Mr. Toller. How long have you been with the correctional services?