Evidence of meeting #5 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was skills.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Mark Holland
Thank you.
To finish the first round, Mr. MacKenzie for seven minutes.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the panellists.
First, I'd like to get something clear. I think my friend who is sitting as the chair indicated we're a week and a half away from these being closed. My understanding is that we're a year and a week and a half away from these being closed.
4:05 p.m.
Regional Deputy Commissioner of Ontario, Correctional Service Canada
March 2011 is the closure date, but we are closing in gradients. Different things will close at different times.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Okay. Just so we're clear.
I come from a farming community. I understand what people who work on the farms get from that. One of the problems I also understand is that to transfer the skills people need, particularly coming out of prisons--because I dealt with those people many times before they went to prison; they end up going to prison because they don't have marketable skills. Not to belittle what people learn in agriculture, because I think it's very valid, but if they don't have any marketable skills coming out of the institutions, all we're doing is setting them up to go back in, and there's no benefit to that.
The other part is—maybe Mr. Toller or someone else could illustrate this for us—the products that CORCAN sells to the penitentiaries now are food products; they will be bought from other Canadian farmers.
4:05 p.m.
Regional Deputy Commissioner of Ontario, Correctional Service Canada
It will go to the normal procurement process and be put out to tender. Canadian farmers will be able to apply for those tenders.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Sure. So we're going to take that production out of wherever—there is an expanding market for those who produce the commodities you use?
4:05 p.m.
Regional Deputy Commissioner of Ontario, Correctional Service Canada
Yes.
I'll just use the Ontario region as a reference. I still will be required to purchase milk and eggs. CORCAN will no longer be a supplier for me. I have to put those out to tender for consideration by others.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
The other thing we have frequently heard is that there are plans to use that farmland for something else. Can you answer?
4:10 p.m.
Regional Deputy Commissioner of Ontario, Correctional Service Canada
Yes. There is no planned use for the land at this point in time. Our commissioner has indicated an interest in maintaining land as agricultural tract utilization here. We are actually, right now, exploring how we will make that work in a security environment. Obviously, there are local bylaws that have to be considered for elements such as pesticides for weed control. There are also elements that we have to consider in just working within a farm environment, such as a security area.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
My colleagues on the other side spent a great deal of time talking about the skills and the personal growth that people enjoy from their farms. As I said, I come from a farming community. Mr. Easter knows; he comes to my riding every time there's an election. So he knows we have a strong agricultural community.
That said, if we do that only for our people who are inmates in the federal institutions, what do they go out and find in terms of occupations? I think you've indicated that a fairly small percentage out of that large body actually gets agriculture-related jobs.
I don't want to offend anybody, but it seems to me that a number of the issues that people on the other side have indicated are also things that people will learn by taking part in a variety of other things. They won't lose all those opportunities for punctuality, teamwork, and so on, because the farms don't exist.
4:10 p.m.
Regional Deputy Commissioner of Ontario, Correctional Service Canada
As I mentioned, close to 70% of inmates come to us with unstable work histories, and 60% have no skill knowledge or elements. So if there's market availability out there, as we know very clearly, in terms of trades and vocational schools, if you have a person who's working in areas where he or she can actually accumulate hours towards vocational training and experience, those same skills of punctuality and teamwork will apply, with a stronger likelihood to have a market reality job upon release. That's where public safety comes in. When you grab the job, the job that's available here, the likelihood for you to return will be that much lower.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
I understood recently from a press article that a number of inmates from one of the correctional facilities in Canada spent a great deal of time, from that facility, working on building a house in the community, which has translated into skills and jobs.
4:10 p.m.
Regional Deputy Commissioner of Ontario, Correctional Service Canada
Yes, there was an example given. Actually, CBC put it on the radio. Out in Saskatchewan, 19 inmates worked on reserve land. I believe it was Lac La Ronge. They built a house for the first nation reserve. A number of those inmates have already gone on to obtain work.
This is exactly what the commissioner continues to challenge us with in terms of those types of elements, where job skills are transferable to market realities. Again, it's also the essence of the community's interest to work with our offenders in elements such as that.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
That in itself would tell me that it also involves punctuality, teamwork, all the skills that are needed, but in addition it's a direct skill that's marketable when the offender comes out of the institution.
4:10 p.m.
Regional Deputy Commissioner of Ontario, Correctional Service Canada
Yes, very much so.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
As I think one of my colleagues mentioned when we talked earlier, over the years we've had these farms across the country. How many might we have had 50 years ago? Would you know?
4:10 p.m.
Regional Deputy Commissioner of Ontario, Correctional Service Canada
How many farms might we have had 50 years ago?
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Would it have been a common thing that each of the federal penitentiaries had a prison farm associated with it?
4:10 p.m.
Regional Deputy Commissioner of Ontario, Correctional Service Canada
No. Again, I don't have the dates when all the farms came online. Many of them were born out of annexes at the time, related to an institution. I believe agriculture had more marketability in those particular days, but I don't have the exact dates of when they came online. I'm sorry.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Okay.
I know that in Ontario there were some farms associated with prisons at one time, but I believe most of them have been closed down for a variety of reasons.
4:10 p.m.
Regional Deputy Commissioner of Ontario, Correctional Service Canada
I'm not sure of that.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
4:10 p.m.
Regional Deputy Commissioner of Ontario, Correctional Service Canada
I'm sorry. I wouldn't know.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Mark Holland
Thank you, Mr. MacKenzie.
Now we'll move to the second round.
Mr. Easter, for five minutes.