Public Safety Committee on March 25th, 2010

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

And thank you, folks. I wish I had 25 minutes, but we'll start.

Today, Mr. Toller, you said in your remarks:

Our financial records indicate that during the fiscal year 2008-2009, CSC purchased a total value of approximately $4 million for inmates’ food from the CORCAN farms....

On June 17 of this year, in response to an order paper question, the same words are there, but CSC purchased a total value of $2,949,166 for inmate rations from CORCAN. Which is it? There's a 26% difference.

[Ross Toller]

It's $4 million.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Then why did I get that answer to the order paper question? Do you really know what the figure is?

[Ross Toller]

Yes, the actual total is three million, nine hundred and....if you want the exact--

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

In any event, we'll look further into those figures.

Having been Solicitor General and toured the prison farms, having toured them last February, and having spent considerable time talking to inmates, I personally think—and I think many of us who have toured the farms think—that this is one of the dumbest decisions I could ever see CSC making.

Look at the people in the back of the room. These are community people who are here supporting prison farms, not just for the value to the farming community, but especially for their value in terms of rehabilitation to inmates.

I don't know how much time Mr. Sargent spends talking to people who work in those dairy operations. I don't know how much time he's spent there. But before a decision of this magnitude is made, this committee, and the minister, should be spending time on those farms actually talking to the people.

[Applause]

The people I've talked to on those farms were people who had no life. They gave them a life by working with livestock and dairy cattle--the dairy herds in Kingston and Westmorland. That's rehabilitation.

I'm a dairy farmer, and others around here are farmers as well. When you walk into that barn, you see a herd and you see the pride of those inmates.

I really think this is a bad decision.

Anyway, Mr. Toller, in response to a question from Mr. Davies a moment ago, you mentioned you do not have a program that is important to mental health. I submit to you, sir, that you're wrong. You do, and that's the prison farm system and working with livestock.

Have you done any studies in terms of the rehabilitative impact of working with livestock and on these farms? Are you aware of the garden project in San Francisco?

[Ross Toller]

To answer your first question, we have not done a look in terms of work with mental health and livestock.

No, I'm not aware of the program that you referred to in San Francisco.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Before you go ahead with this decision, you should have a look at it. The study in San Francisco, called the green project, which is operated by the San Francisco county jail, indicated that 29% of the inmates released were rearrested within the first six months, while those who took part in the prison farm programs had a recidivism rate of only 6%. The U.S. Department of Agriculture, on the same project, said it is “one of the most innovative and successful community-based crime prevention programs in the country”.

Sir, if these herds are going to be sold right away, we can't bring them back. Based on the evidence in the United States, this is a system that works. We're going to destroy the system and not get it back. What for? Is it for economics?

In your opening remarks, you said “a four-year cycle to ensure the programs are effective and efficient”. Ottawa and the bureaucracy around here look at the economics, but have you considered the people in that prison system?

You said you didn't do a study. Are you going to do one before this decision is ultimately concluded and it's a fait accompli?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

There is time for a very brief response.

[Ross Toller]

I'm sorry, do a study on the people? I didn't quite understand.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Are you going to look at the impact on people? I'll give you a paper, too. You're wrong on your skills, because there's a major shortage of skills. I'd ask the question, have you talked to the Canadian Agricultural Human Resource Council about their concerns about the shortage of labour in the agricultural community? They're saying they will be short by 50,000 in 2013--that's farm skills.

Your question to me was on people. I'm saying that rather than just looking at the numbers--I said in the beginning we have a difference, a dispute in the numbers--are you looking at the other impacts, mental health, recidivism, and the impact on people in the prisons?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

A very short response, please.

[Ross Toller]

Like I said before, it's an integration. It's more than employability. It's the programs we continue to deliver, it's the violence prevention programs, the substance abuse issues, the education.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Ms. Glover for five minutes.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Welcome to the witnesses.

I want to make something clear right off the bat here. Our interest is clearly to do whatever we can to help these offenders find some prudent, functional jobs and to be able to integrate into a society where they can do well. I know that the Correctional Service of Canada has that very same view on trying to make sure that we give these offenders the best possible tools to make sure that's a reality. I know many of the committee members agree with that, regardless of what side we sit on.

I'd like to focus my questions on some of the costs, but I want to say very clearly that there were some statements made here today that were uneducated statements. I have been to a prison farm. I'm sure, Mr. Easter, many people here have been, so some of your assumptions are without any research or validity.

Nevertheless, I come from a family who farmed as well. My mother grew up on a farm. My mother then went on to be a prison guard. So she too agrees that we need to give prisoners and offenders the best tools possible so that they can succeed.

With that statement made, I would like to touch on some questions, again, about the finances of this. You did state earlier that during the fiscal year 2008-09 a total of 14 offenders found job placements in the agriculture sector, right?

[Ross Toller]

That's correct.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

That was out of about 2,560 who received offender job placements, right?

[Ross Toller]

That's correct.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

So how much does it actually cost to run the six prison farms?

[John Sargent, Chief Executive Officer, CORCAN, Correctional Service Canada]

In fiscal year 2007-08, the last full fiscal year before the strategic review was completed, the cost to run the six farming operations across Canada was $4,113,000.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

And to run CORCAN's program for the entire 2,560 was how much?

[John Sargent]

For the fiscal year 2007-08, the total cost of running the CORCAN program across Canada was $4.99 million, or $5 million.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Okay, but I'm curious about the numbers with regard to all of the programs that CORCAN runs. My understanding was that CORCAN's program spending in 2008-09 was $47 million.

[John Sargent]

In terms of the total expenditures for the operation of our manufacturing and our programs, the total cost of our goods sold was $75.6 million, and the bulk of that came from manufacturing and construction revenues.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

If we do the math, we have 14 offenders who successfully go into agriculture and it cost $4 million to run the six farms. It cost approximately $285,000 to train them to successfully integrate into a successful job, correct?

[Voices]

No. No.