Public Safety Committee on March 15th, 2012

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

The other thing is the recommendation by Dr. Mullan that there be a cap on the number of complaints. Mr. Leef brought up a good point, which was what if all these complaints were valid? If you're putting a cap on them, then obviously you're somehow violating the complainant's rights. But in real life, in real practice, if there's a cap of—I don't know—200 a year, what are the chances, really, that all of these will be legitimate complaints? There are only a certain number of things that can occur in a prison environment. A complaint has to be about food or about confinement.

Theoretically I take Mr. Leef's point, but in practice I would think that if somebody hit the cap then the chances that all of these were legitimate would probably be slim to almost nil, I would think.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Scarpaleggia.

You can give a very quick answer, if you want to.

[Kim Pate]

I don't see anywhere that he actually indicates a cap. He does mention in one case a figure of 300, but I'm....

[An hon. member]

No, it says there were—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Okay, thank you.

We'll now go to the New Democratic Party, please.

Ms. Morin, you have five minutes.

[Marie-Claude Morin, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would also like to thank Ms. Pate and Ms. Latimer for joining us today.

Earlier, we were briefly talking about people with mental illnesses and about frivolous complaints. But some things may seem frivolous to us, but they may not be seen that way by someone dealing with a mental illness.

Is it possible that this bill may no longer allow us to identify people with mental illnesses who need help? And is that something that itself could prevent tragic accidents like the one involving Ms. Smith, for example.

[Kim Pate]

I suppose there's always a potential that it could happen. It's a concern right now that too often the complaints aren't taken seriously in those sorts of situations.

[Marie-Claude Morin, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Okay.

[Kim Pate]

Catherine has a correction. She found the part. Dr. Mullan said he would consider a multiple griever as someone who, on a rolling monthly basis, “has filed more than one hundred complaints and grievances during the previous twelve months”.

I don't want to misstate this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Please continue, Ms. Morin.

[Marie-Claude Morin, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you.

Bill C-10 will be in effect soon, so the prison population will inevitably increase, as will the problems of dealing with complaints.

Does preventing inmates from filing complaints run the risk of causing reprisals and violence in prisons and possibly endangering public safety? Is that a theory you would confirm?

[Catherine Latimer]

Certainly the Ontario ombudsman, who has seen.... Ontario prisons have seen an increase in population base, in many cases. Over the last 18 months or so, he has seen a significant increase in complaints about violence against inmates, either by other inmates or by guards. He is doing a very detailed investigation of the violence within the Ontario corrections system.

It's pretty well known that if you increase the density of inmates and the numbers that are going to be double-bunked, you're going to see more violence problems.

[Kim Pate]

One mechanism that already exists in law, as we've mentioned, is the grievance committee, which hasn't been put in place. The law provides for a committee to be set up with equal numbers of prisoners and equal numbers of staff. They could then review complaints and assess whether in fact they are seen as legitimate to proceed forward with.

It strikes me that enforcing or encouraging that mechanism to be put in place in all of the institutions, particularly as there are more numbers and fewer job opportunities, would provide a way for people to have some training around this process: how to do legitimate complaints, how to have their concerns raised.

You met some of the women, at the forum the other day, who have been through that kind of process. I mean, those are skills that are transferable. When you get into the community, you can then advocate on your own behalf.

It strikes me that this might be a mechanism that could be supported—to have the complaint and grievance committees set up in all of the institutions and provide a more fair process.

[Marie-Claude Morin, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Yes, the Mullan report raised the question of dealing with some complaints a little more informally. It said that about 45% of complaints could be resolved in that way and they would not necessarily have to go up a level in the hierarchy. That would ease the process a great deal.

Basically, as I discuss this with you, I am coming to the conclusion that perhaps it is the grievance system that needs to be reformed in its entirety. It is not a question of dealing with marginal cases, but of reforming the complaint system for the prison population as a whole.

[Kim Pate]

It certainly has been the subject of our recommendations for a number of years, as well as Louise Arbour's and many of the Correctional Investigator's. Certainly it would be beneficial to see a shoring up of that process to assist in having prisoners be able to serve their sentences in a way that is lawful and follows the rules.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Madame Morin.

We'll now move to Ms. Hoeppner, please, for at least three minutes.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Three minutes?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Well, you get five, but we're going to....

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Okay. Thank you very much.

I want to thank both witnesses for being here again.

Two days ago we heard from Ms. James on this bill, so we started to get a bit of a sense of where the concerns were. There did seem to be some concern from the opposition that this bill could possibly give too much power to the commissioner, which he could possibly abuse; that was suggested.

In fact, one of the members was talking about this scenario:

What happens if you have somebody who hasn't been acting in good faith...and they're labelled a vexatious complainant, and then a couple of days later a guard does something? Knowing that the person has been labelled and their hands are now tied, a guard decides to take advantage of the situation and really give it to the offender.

Is that something that you would be concerned with as well? Are you concerned that our correctional officers may take advantage of this and, if given the opportunity, as this member said, “really give it to the offender”?

[Kim Pate]

I think in any kind of human service there's always a risk that some individuals will act inappropriately. As an overall concern, would it be a concern that people would purposely go out to harm others? No. But we have far too many examples—Ashley Smith is another one—of where a mentality can intervene that, sadly and tragically, results in people being treated in inhumane and unfair ways.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

So you would share that concern—

[Kim Pate]

I would share the concern that it could be a possibility.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

—that it could be a possibility that a correctional officer would—

[Kim Pate]

Most of the correctional officers I know, and I think most of them in the system, would support the grievance process and would support the need for that and for people to have legitimate means. There certainly are always exceptions to that.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you.