Public Safety Committee on Feb. 26th, 2013

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Do you have some way to evaluate the training once the employees have completed it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Be very quick.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Yes, we have it in our computer system, of course, so that once a person signs on with their own identity and takes the course, then they don't get credit for it until they've passed the course. It's not particularly difficult. It's the idea of going through the computer-based training to get exposed to all of those ideas.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

We'll move back to the government and go to Mr. Norlock, please.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and through you to the witness, thank you for attending, Commissioner.

For our previous witness, there were constant questions about his being able to adequately complete his investigation. The thought was that there might be inadequate resources. Do you envisage there being any problem with adequate funding for you to completely following through on your desire to make sure that we have a harassment complaint policy and procedure within the RCMP that is second to none among police forces around the world?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, I don't think it turns on resources. Certainly the failings that have been identified by the CPC don't arise from a shortage of resources. They arise from a shortage of compliance with our policies and our expectations. As I've said, there are going to be some additional minor resources and tweaking of how we manage ourselves. I don't see the resourcing issue being an impediment to delivering on this action plan.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Commissioner.

Please let me know if this is an accurate reflection from your perspective. In Bill C-42, if I recall, there's an additional $9.8 million to investigate complaints. Based on what you previously said, would you say that the $9.8 million will go a long way to making sure that you are able to fulfill your commitment towards properly investigating and having those policies and procedures laid down in order to do a good job with regard to harassment?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

That's right. In respect of Bill C-42, that $9.8 million will do what you've mentioned, but it will also give us the opportunity to get the training and the awareness out to those NCOs. They're going to have to manage this discipline thing in a way that they've never had to do before, and the centralized monitoring of that will be supported by that money as well.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Commissioner, for that.

There was a discussion about computer-based training or electronic training with regard to harassment and sexual harassment, that whole gamut of different types of harassment. Is it not a fact that this route is now used by most agencies to deliver training, especially those agencies that have a deployed personnel or forces?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

That's true. It's a very effective way of training people, notwithstanding my comments earlier that we're spread out across the country. It's a very efficient way of doing it. The way it's constructed and designed provides very effective training. I can't quote it but I will go on record as saying there's data supporting the effectiveness of this type of training because of the way it's constructed.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

One would assume that it's effective training, because that's how universities and colleges and other educational organizations, as well as companies, are delivering it. I'm very much aware of significant companies that do their training of employees electronically.

So from the standpoint of efficacy, you would agree that it's not an issue. But would you also be prepared to state in your directives to your subordinates that should they find that the electronic training is not as effective as other forms—indeed, sometimes there are pockets where it's not as effective—that perhaps there needs to be one-on-one or group training live?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

That's right, absolutely, and particularly with respect to our efforts to train harassment investigators. My senior leaders, my managers particularly, my COs are getting one-on-one training on that very issue—from me.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much.

Mr. McPhail's report indicated that he could not find—and he was rather specific when he was here just before you—evidence of systemic workplace harassment in the RCMP. I wonder whether you could make comment with regard to that.

Would you also say that as an investigative rule, if you begin an investigation with a certain premise in mind and only ask questions that reinforce that premise and not ones questions that might lead you down another path, or if you ignore certain evidence, you will find evidence? I'm referring to a case in which, if someone wants to say right off the top that there is a systemic problem in the RCMP and only goes with that in mind, they're going to come up with that. But in an independent, objective investigation, one comes up with a certain result.

I'm asking you, I guess, whether from your perspective you feel that in the RCMP there is systemic harassment, sexual harassment in particular.

And have you looked at other police organizations with regard to best practices in delivering education, in delivering training, and in training investigators and developing those policies and principles?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would say that I don't feel that there is a systemic problem of sexual harassment in the RCMP. There are some very public and well-known cases of allegations of sexual harassment in the RCMP, and that is a blight on the RCMP, frankly.

I do feel, and I've said consistently since I've been appointed, that we have some issues with how we manage authority. I think that's borne out by the CPC's findings. I think we have to modernize that and make changes in how we treat each other in the workplace.

I'm sorry, but I forget the last part of your question, but I had an answer.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

I was asking whether you had looked at best practices—

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Yes, we have. What we're doing now, Mr. Chair, is rolling out a respectful workplace program. It's been very effective. A couple of years back here in Ottawa, they did the same thing. A lot of police forces and organizations do this. We're doing it as well, taking it from best practices.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We'll move now to Mr. Scarpaleggia for seven minutes.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Thank you.

You said something that was rather interesting, Commissioner. You said that in the current system there are grievances launched at every turn.

Could you elaborate on that? What I thought I understood by it was that you have a grievance, the grievance goes to some kind of committee, and then the person who is being grieved against turns around and launches their own grievance. Then it goes to another level, and by that time the originator of the grievance thinks of something else and launches a second grievance.

Is that what you're saying? Is this what you're talking about?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Effectively it is, but in the current approach to harassment, an employee makes a harassment complaint, and the response of the organization is to document it, to notify the alleged harasser, to immediately react to and assess what the allegation is. But then a series of decisions are made by management, and if the complainant isn't satisfied with the first decision, he or she can file a grievance, and then the grievance has its own track through the organization. So every subsequent decision that gets made contrary to the interests of the complainant can be grieved.

In fact, I was just flying back from Edmonton and going through a number of these external review committee recommendations, and there are multiple grievances from the same complainant, effectively from the same set of facts. What Bill C-42 will also do is to help us streamline how we manage the grievance process and how we're able to bring it all together to make it a little bit more sensible.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I'm having a hard time understanding how many decisions one could make in the course of one harassment grievance, sexual or otherwise. How many decisions are there to make in that process? Do you have a small example?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Here is one, very quickly: I complain about the way you are asking me questions; I feel that you are harassing me. So the chair comes in and has a look at it and says, no, I don't think it's harassment; I think you guys just don't understand one another and I'd like you to work it out.

You then, say, grieve the chair's decision, saying that it is a bad decision and that you have a grievance. It has a separate form, a separate system. We're managing a grievance and we're managing the harassment claim.

Then, perhaps, after the grievance goes forward, we conclude the harassment file, and any decision that's made in that harassment—

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Right.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

So every sort of positive action or negative action gets grieved.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

And you will simplify this system?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

We will simplify this.