Public Safety Committee on March 5th, 2013

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

The short answer to your question is yes. Again, I refer back to the psychological assessment and the case management plan that is being prepared. Through that, we recognize the cultural needs that are there and how that case management plan can be adapted to ensure that person, that group, or that family can be successful in the program.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Is there a fair amount of uptake among aboriginal Canadians in the program? Or, maybe as a better way to put it, have you seen an increase over the last, say, four to six years?

[Insp Greg Bowen]

No.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Do you feel it would be worthwhile to have a program, given that there is an increase certainly in youth gang activity among first nations? Has perhaps a special outreach program been talked about? Would you see any value in that?

[Insp Greg Bowen]

I think, just to build on what Assistant Commissioner Shean said, part of the process going forward, and also responding to the recommendations that came out of SECU in 2008 and Air India in 2010, has resulted in the federal program taking a much closer look at the cultural impact of coming into witness protection programs.

To some extent, that's addressed in training. We've changed training quite a bit. We're constantly evaluating and assessing the people we currently have in the program. Some of those people come from different cultural backgrounds, and we learn stuff as a result of doing that.

Going forward, we plan to continue to build on the program. The program is a very robust program right now. I think it's a much better program today than it was a year ago, and it will be a much better program a year from now. And when I say “much better”, I mean it will also be much better at responding to cultural challenges.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

That's good to hear. I'm glad you're moving in that direction.

That leads me to maybe my last question before my time is up. If you find, as you move forward and as you expand the program and look at where the program needs to go, that you do need increased resources—I'm thinking of financial resources in particular—is there ability within the RCMP to shift some money around to ensure the integrity of the witness protection program as it moves forward?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

I guess what I can say from an RCMP perspective is that we continually evaluate all our programs. Based upon the needs, we'll make the decisions that are required. We look at our programs on a yearly basis.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Rafferty.

We'll now move down to Mr. Payne, please, for five minutes.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for coming. Thank you very much for your presentations. These are important aspects.

We've been talking about certainly the Air India case and potential terrorism, and there's one thing I'm wondering about. Potentially you could have numerous witnesses on those cases. Is there any limit as to the number of individuals who might require protection under that? There might even be up to a dozen. Would all of them be potentially considered for the witness protection program?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

There's no limit, per se. It would be based on the threat assessment that was done and what type of protection package would be required.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Okay. Good.

In your comments, you also talked about certainly the additional training that's required. Could you tell us what additional training the people in the RCMP would require for the handling of these individuals?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

I'll start with what the training is, and then I'll turn to my partner to go a little more in depth.

We've increased the initial training of people working within the witness protection program from two weeks to three in the first phase. Within 10 months, in phase two of the training, they will come back for further follow-up training. Then there are yearly training workshops that are compulsory.

If you want something a little bit more in depth on what that particular training is, I'll turn to my counterpart here.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you.

[Insp Greg Bowen]

There are two elements related to the training, sir.

One element deals with the administrative component of the program. The federal witness protection program is a very heavy administrative initiative.

The other component deals more with the operational perspective. From an operational perspective, in terms of the enhanced training we're providing, we're spending much more time now dedicating training time to enhancing communication skills of our coordinators and to better understanding the methodologies we're currently using, including the introduction and the role that the psychologists play in the admissions and the program outreach capabilities. It includes the importance of understanding the requirement to more closely monitor protectees to ensure that when they're in the program, if there are certain signs or indicators that perhaps there could be trouble around the road for them, or they're having difficulty in assimilating into the program or adjusting to the program, we can identify those things much earlier.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Okay. Thank you.

I think both of you also talked about the database and what you have in terms of protecting the individuals. My issue is that we hear about hackers all the time, unauthorized entry into these kinds of systems. What protections are in place to ensure that this doesn't happen and that these witnesses' identities could be compromised?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

We work with our informatics sector, who are well versed in this area, to ensure that there are appropriate levels of protection around our systems. Frankly, I couldn't go into what's behind it, but I work with the appropriate people who have the expertise to make sure the information is secure.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Okay, perfect.

You also talked about specialized secure protocols. Is that anything different from what you've already described there? Do you have any more detail that you could provide us on development for witness protection function?

[Insp Greg Bowen]

There are a number of protocols. Ones that would be appropriate to probably discuss here right now, for instance, would be all of the protocols surrounding the admissions process, how the organization has made significant structural shifts to ensure the independence of the decision-making process relative to witness protection. Admissions are distinct from the investigative considerations. There is a series of protocols around that: how the divisions will ultimately report in to Ottawa; how we, in my office, receive the packages from the field coordinators; and how we respond to that.

Other protocols that we're developing and that have been developed are relative to how we deal with the day-to-day operations with these people within the program to ensure that the levels of protection are adequate and the services provided to them are adequate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Payne.

We'll now move to Monsieur Rousseau.

Mr. Rousseau, you have five minutes.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a general question for each of you. Do you believe that this bill contains measures that increase the efficiency of the witness protection system, in terms of quick response time? When events occur and they are investigated, it's extremely important to ensure that people are protected as quickly as possible.

I am thinking namely of the Hells Angels' investigation, or that of Air India, which lasted nearly 25 years. We know that memories fade. Investigations take time. The Hells Angels' investigation has been going on for four or five years, and the alleged criminals are in prison. We are still waiting for the trials.

I am particularly concerned about the efficiency and speed with which witnesses of events can be protected, in order to collect the most solid testimony to convict the guilty and sentence them.

I would like you to discuss the efficiency and speed with which one must act in order to protect people, to obtain solid testimony that could be used in court.

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

The most important thing is that the emergency measures implementation period is now going from 90 to 180 days. That's how quickly it can be done now. If one thinks that a witness is in danger, he can benefit from the emergency measures outlined in the program.

One hundred and eighty days are available to decide if a person will be permanently protected by the program, if other measures must be taken to protect him, or if he does not need protection because the case won't be going forward. That's how quickly a decision can be made.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Mr. Bhupsingh, what are your impressions about this? It is known that sometimes, organized crime can become organized quickly. Sometimes, it will take charge of witnesses, change their identity and send them as far away as possible so that they cannot testify.

How will Bill C-51 protect us from such eventualities?

[Trevor Bhupsingh]

I'm not sure Bill C-51 will protect us against the particular cases you mentioned, but I think the efficiencies are primarily driven in the bill around what Assistant Commissioner Shean has said. The efficiencies lie in the integration of the provincial programs into the federal program.

Certainly we're hopeful that with Bill C-51 the individuals will be able to have a secure identity change in a much more efficient and quicker process. Then again, there's an internal process that's followed by the RCMP on every case. The layers of complexity that we talked about this morning all play into that.

It's hard to say specifically how generally the efficiencies will drive themselves; however, there are a number of elements that are important. As I said, the integration of the provincial programs and then the extending of the emergency protection measures as well will I think allow more flexibility for the RCMP. The duration in which they can establish emergency measures for protectees is being moved from 90 days to 180 days. Along those lines, there will be efficiencies driven that should hopefully address some of the concerns in the specific cases you've raised.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Thank you.

As I only have one minute left, I will come back to you, Mr. Shean.

You said that the RCMP officers detailed to witness protection were the first to benefit from full training. You then said that before the end of the next financial year, you anticipate that five full-time psychologists will be working exclusively for the federal program. Will these individuals come from the corps of already-trained officers, or will new professionals be hired to take these positions?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

From what I have seen, professionals will be hired.